.223 Heavies

[urbanrifleman]

Do you have a picture of the 90 VLD? Just curious thanks for posting the pics

223 ISSF
90 vld

You can barely see the pressure ring. So, it appears to be even worse than the 90 SMK.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Here is the 90 vld 230 fb. I made a ring on the pressure ring so you can see it.

I would say the 230 FB is also perfect for the 90 vld.

If I were going to custom make a reamer I would probably use 200 freebore for the 90 vld. But I would certainly shoot it out of the 230 especially since you might be shooting it jumping.

 

[avidflyer]

223 ISSF
90 vld

You can barely see the pressure ring. So, it appears to be even worse than the 90 SMK.

View attachment 1694130View attachment 1694131

If the 90 VLD is even worse, wouldn't that mean they're a bit longer than the 90 SMK. either way, appreciate the pictures gives people a good image of what's really going on. Have you done any work with the 95 Bergers

 

[urbanrifleman]

If the 90 VLD is even worse, wouldn't that mean they're a bit longer than the 90 SMK. either way, appreciate the pictures gives people a good image of what's really going on. Have you done any work with the 95 Bergers

I guess you were correct. Whatever little difference that is, I had noted all of them being in the donut with that reamer and never really gave it much thought after that.

 

[avidflyer]

I guess you were correct. Whatever little difference that is, I had noted all of them being in the donut with that reamer and never really gave it much thought after that.

not all about that, honestly I really enjoy shooting a well tuned 223 pretty amazing what that cartridge can do. Have a couple thousand 88.5's to try, after I use up all the 90 smk and vld's again thanks for the pictures. It puts everything in perspective for someone trying to figure out and set up that cartridge.

 

[jelenko]

95 Bergers

Does Berger make a 95gr bullet for 223?

 

[Cfshooter]

In my .223 bolt action, with heavier bullets (69 gr to 77 grs) for 5-round groups at 100 yards:
Varget seems to be better in my rifle than anything else by a bit
Varget is first (0.261 for 511 groups).
N540 is second (0.267 for 142 groups),
H4895 is third (0.271 for 51 groups).
IMR4166 is fourth (0.286 for 498 groups).
N140 is fifth (0.289 for 224 groups).
N133 is sixth but only with light, 52 and 53 gr, bullets (0.290 for 98 groups).

They all shoot pretty well, but the large group counts eliminate the small number of "wonder groups" that many use to judge performance. I find that it is more due to shooter induced variations, or lack of them, and can be very misleading for decision making about overall accuracy.

Holy laser beam! That thing is averaging under .3 for over 1500 5 shout groups? In 223?

 

[avidflyer]

Does Berger make a 95gr bullet for 223?

It's a SMK not a Berger.

 

[CF Junkie]

CFshooter,

It took me two solid years of working on my set-up technique and improving my reloading skills to get those kind of results.
Then I added a Savage 12 FV .223 26-inch 1:9 twist barrel and added an Oryx chassis to get stability.
I shoot from a bench and use a F-Class Sinclair bipod and a Protektor rear rest.
The factory Savage barrel had 9,015 rounds down the tube when I recently changed it to a Shilen Select Match 416R SS 1:7 twist 26-inch barrel because I was getting concerned that seating bullets out to maintain jump in a eroded barrel might be creating neck tension variations.

The new barrel is incredible and I am still testing bullet and seating depth preferences but after 229 groups with 15 different bullets from 69 to 90 grains, the overall average is 0.220.
25% of my 5-round groups are under 0.2 inches. I am still having problems with shooter induced variations that are increasing some of my group sizes.
The best single group so far was 0.055 with 4 in the same hole so tight that I couldn't see the hole expand, then with the barrel heating up the 5th shot was just a bit lower by just a tad. Even a 416R SS bull barrel heats up with 5 fairly rapid shots and, I find that it causes a slight drop in POI. I was on such a roll I couldn't stop to let the barrel cool.
I guess that would surprise you even more, but I don't think I have figured out what works best yet.
As soon as I get to 500 groups, I'll post some results for the new barrel.

 

[charlie b]

After a bit of research (not much ) and thanks to Bergers excellent data. Some data came from the GRT database so not sure how accurate it is. It looks like the 88ELD and 90VLD are longest with the 90SMK being 'stubbier', close to the 85.5. The 80's are all pretty close. I wonder if the BTO of the 85.5 and 90SMK are similar as well. Given the bullet descriptions of ogives I suspect they are. Same with the 90VLD and 88ELD? I don't have any to measure so that's guess work. If you have some measurements it would be interesting to see the differences. Note: I looked at the picture of the 95SMK on Sierra's site and it looks like all they did was increase the body length a bit, ogive looks same as the 90.

Bullet length BTO
80SMK 1.0945 unk
90SMK 1.1693 unk
80ELD 1.0630 unk
88ELD 1.2457 unk
80.5FB 1.091 0.589
85.5HY 1.167 0.585
90VLD 1.254 0.622

 

[CF Junkie]

charlie b,

Not sure this helps because the measurements of Bullet Bast to Tip, Bullet Base to Ogive and Bullet Ogive to Tip are all measurements of the lot of bullets that I am using.
I find that the spec bullet lengths and QuickLOAD bullet lengths are not always accurate compared to measurements of bullets and even from bullet lot to lot.

I measure every lot.

Bullet​	BBTT​	BBTO​	BOTT​
70 Berger VLD​	0.960​	0.452​	0.508​
73 Berger BT​	0.966​	0.454​	0.512​
77 Berger OTM​	1.023​	0.491​	0.532​
80 Berger VLD​	1.103​	0.477​	0.626​
90 Berger VLD​	1.240​	0.515​	0.725​
69 Sierra SMK​	0.903​	0.404​	0.499​
69 Sierra TMK​	0.978​	0.415​	0.563​
77 Sierra SMK​	0.980​	0.487​	0.493​
77 Sierra TMK​	1.074​	0.515​	0.559​
80 Sierra SMK​	1.084​	0.436​	0.648​
90 Sierra SMK​	1.181​	0.543​	0.638​
73 HornadyELD-M​	1.040​	0.484​	0.556​
80 Hornady ELD-M​	1.159​	0.515​	0.644​
88 Hornady ELD-M​	1.237​	0.572​	0.665​

Sor​

 

[charlie b]

Thanks for those. Are those with the Hornady comparator? Std 22 bushing?

The VLD type jackets have such a shallow taper that even different Hornady bushings may give different readings. Not to mention the user problem (I am talking about my ham fisted use of calipers ).

I would not be surprised if the Berger numbers were from their 'blueprints'.

 

[urbanrifleman]

After a bit of research (not much ) and thanks to Bergers excellent data. Some data came from the GRT database so not sure how accurate it is. It looks like the 88ELD and 90VLD are longest with the 90SMK being 'stubbier', close to the 85.5. The 80's are all pretty close. I wonder if the BTO of the 85.5 and 90SMK are similar as well. Given the bullet descriptions of ogives I suspect they are. Same with the 90VLD and 88ELD? I don't have any to measure so that's guess work. If you have some measurements it would be interesting to see the differences. Note: I looked at the picture of the 95SMK on Sierra's site and it looks like all they did was increase the body length a bit, ogive looks same as the 90.

Bullet length BTO
80SMK 1.0945 unk
90SMK 1.1693 unk
80ELD 1.0630 unk
88ELD 1.2457 unk
80.5FB 1.091 0.589
85.5HY 1.167 0.585
90VLD 1.254 0.622

Very good info.

So, 223 ISSF would be good up to the Berger 85.5. In my opinion, the 230 freebore is excellent for all of the longer bullets.

I use 170 freebore in the long neck cases.

 

[charlie b]

It does seem like you were right about the 90VLD and 88ELD being the "problem children". The 90SMK's and 85.5's a bit less so.

It does create a dilemma for those of us who might wish to shoot lighter bullets in these guns (if you can call 77 and 80gn 'light' ). Get the longer FB to allow shooting the 90 and 88 long pills or go slightly shorter and limit to the 90SMK. Decisions, decisions

I've tried following the F-TR folks as well. Most there repeat your caution about seating past the donut. Most of their concerns are about pushing higher velocities for that last bit of advantage, something I won't be doing. Bullet preferences seem to still be the 90SMK, 90VLD and 88ELD.

Heck, I do ok shooting 73ELD's at 600yd, informal of course.

 

[RegionRat]

It does seem like you were right about the 90VLD and 88ELD being the "problem children". The 90SMK's and 85.5's a bit less so.

It does create a dilemma for those of us who might wish to shoot lighter bullets in these guns (if you can call 77 and 80gn 'light' ). Get the longer FB to allow shooting the 90 and 88 long pills or go slightly shorter and limit to the 90SMK. Decisions, decisions

I've tried following the F-TR folks as well. Most there repeat your caution about seating past the donut. Most of their concerns are about pushing higher velocities for that last bit of advantage, something I won't be doing. Bullet preferences seem to still be the 90SMK, 90VLD and 88ELD.

Heck, I do ok shooting 73ELD's at 600yd, informal of course.

Just some thoughts in case they are helpful.

For informal shooting, I tend to say there isn't as much motivation to run higher pressure and be mean to your brass. Competing in Mid/Long Range games is different and demanding with 223.

There are some folks who can beat you while you run a 308 and they run a 223. They are talented and dedicated and among the very best shooters. In so many words, they are experts who like an additional challenge.

Those F-T/R folks are pushing brass hard in order to get a decent velocity on those 90s, but unless you are trying to hold 10s and Xs at 1000 yards running a 223, then decide how hard you want to push your brass and don't look back.

The other thing to consider when selecting the candidate bullets, which more or less forces the selection of the reamer, is that the tangent ogive bullets are far less sensitive to the depth than the secant bullets, and that the hybrids can behave like the best of both.

If you don't mind running jam, then some of the secant or VLD bullets can really pay off when you can get them to behave. They can hold inside a tangent bullet in windy conditions. These choices demand that the reamer and the bullets are coordinated, especially if you are going to wring the performance out of a VLD. YMMV

 

[charlie b]

Thanks for that. It is along the lines of my thinking.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Just curious how much of advantage does the 88/90 bullets give you over the 80’s at 600/1000 after speed is figure in. Is it worth? Not debating just asking

 

[urbanrifleman]

You can find 88 Eldms for $25 or less a hundred. They have a BC the same as a 105 hybrid (.540). They shoot really small. Easy to load.

Honestly, if you can find a better deal than that, buy it.

Just basic pricing out there is something like this.

Hornady 75 BTHP is about 18 cents.
75 eldm is about 25 cents.
80 ELdM are about 25 cents.
88 eldm is about 25 cents.
(RMR Bulk) 90 SMK are 32 cents (regular is about 48 cents)
Sierra 80 SMK are about 33 cents.
Berger 85.5 are about 40 cents (45 cents Midway)
Berger 90 VLD is about 45 cents.

If cost is not an issue, then I still say 88 ELDM still has the best numbers. Shoots easier than a 90 vld. I do like the 90 SMK a bunch. 80 SMK is a great bullet. As is the 75 BTHP Hornady and 75 eldm.

When it comes to 223 it is best to just pick a bullet and shoot it, and not try to make it do everything. IMHO.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Just curious how much of advantage does the 88/90 bullets give you over the 80’s at 600/1000 after speed is figure in. Is it worth? Not debating just asking

80 SMK BC .420
90 smk .504
88 eldm BC .540

Target velocity of 88 is 2750.

We shoot the 80 smk at 2850.

 

[RegionRat]

Just curious how much of advantage does the 88/90 bullets give you over the 80’s at 600/1000 after speed is figure in. Is it worth? Not debating just asking

Unless you have achieved Master or High Master at 1000 yards, then you typically need to accept that there is another learning curve to get to the same level of shooting at 1000 as you had at 600. That said...

If you can get a VLD design to group in your rig, it will generally shoot inside a tangent bullet just based on the difference in the BC.

The challenge is to get that load development to produce a good group in your hands and your rig.

If your shooting isn't tight, then you can't take advantage of the BC or the economy. If you get a VLD to work, then you will shoot inside the others in wind.

To keep things simple, if I don't use heroic pressures, and just keep the kinetic energy level at 1300 ft*lbs to make them all equal, we can show a side-by-side. In reality, F-T/R folks push these all much harder than published pressure, so keep that in mind.

At 1000 yards from a 100 yard zero, at sea level.
Bullet, MV (fps), Elevation MOA, 10 MPH Wind MOA
77 SMK, 2760 , 45.8, 15.41
80 SMK, 2705 , 38.5, 11.39
88 ELDM, 2580 , 38.4, 10.22
90 SMK, 2550 , 41.3, 11.50
90 B VLD, 2550 , 39.7, 10.43

Now suppose we accept higher pressure and lower brass life. If we allow the energy level to hit 1400 ft*lbs in a 223, then the Berger 90 VLD will be going 2650, 36.2 up, 9.79 for wind.
The Hornady 88 ELDM at the same energy will be going 2680, 35.9 up, 10.04 for wind.

The trick is that those F-T/R folks run a long bbl and high pressure to get their speed up. When they can get a ELDM or VLD to shoot tight, they can beat you with their 223 while you are shooting a 308.