.223 Heavies

[Retired shooter]

I've had very good results with Berger 85.5s, N140, fairly slow at 2840. Extremely consistent and easy to tune.
Oh, in an ISSF chamber, 31", 7 twist.

At what distance.?
Thanks

 

[kevin nevius]

Great thread, thanks for starting it!

Of all the heavy bullets I've used / tested, the Berger 90 VLD's are by far my favorites. Personally, I believe most competitive 223 shooters think they need to push these way too hard. High pressures cause there own set of issues from reduced brass life, premature barrel wear and fouling limiting useful match accuracy.

I have found the ISSF chamber perfect for seating depth with the 90VLD's (cartridge OAL is about 2.620" FYI, chamber pressures an get weird if the bullet is seated into the powder column IMHO).

My favorite load for fullbore / Palma shooting is 25.0 VV N150 (which requires a drop tube), and 205M's. Exceptional elevation at 1000 yards, and although fairly mild regarding pressure, is still around 1400fps at the target (from a MV of 2780fps). Brass life is exceptional.

VVN140 is also a great choice, but the best ES / SD numbers (for me) were by far using N150.

Barrels are all Benchmark 7 twist, 3 groove, finish lengths between 32 and 34 inches.

PS.......one of my fullbore rifles is suppressed, and this load (and the Berger 90's) is amazing on Ohio woodchucks at very long range!!

All the best to you,

kev

 

[TommyD11730]

This morning I tried

I always enjoyed your posts on Savage Shooters. Happy to see you here!

 

[Sumtoc]

At what distance.?
Thanks

Sorry, F-T/R @ 600, haven't even shot it at 1K, use a straight 284 for that. Haven't tried the 90s since many have said they are hard to tune (and I am pretty lazy). But I have some, and I have some N-150 so I'll be trying those with the info Kevin shared. I like milder loads that shoot well. Thanks!

 

[charlie b]

Great thread, thanks for starting it!

Of all the heavy bullets I've used / tested, the Berger 90 VLD's are by far my favorites. Personally, I believe most competitive 223 shooters think they need to push these way too hard. High pressures cause there own set of issues from reduced brass life, premature barrel wear and fouling limiting useful match accuracy.

I have found the ISSF chamber perfect for seating depth with the 90VLD's (cartridge OAL is about 2.620" FYI, chamber pressures an get weird if the bullet is seated into the powder column IMHO).

My favorite load for fullbore / Palma shooting is 25.0 VV N150 (which requires a drop tube), and 205M's. Exceptional elevation at 1000 yards, and although fairly mild regarding pressure, is still around 1400fps at the target (from a MV of 2780fps). Brass life is exceptional.

VVN140 is also a great choice, but the best ES / SD numbers (for me) were by far using N150.

Barrels are all Benchmark 7 twist, 3 groove, finish lengths between 32 and 34 inches.

PS.......one of my fullbore rifles is suppressed, and this load (and the Berger 90's) is amazing on Ohio woodchucks at very long range!!

All the best to you,

kev

Thanks for this.

I'm also interested in an F-TR so am looking at 90's or Hornady 88's in a .223. My current .223 is a stock Savage Axis with a 22" barrel. I only shot 77SMK's at 1000yd twice. One was 18" group, the other 15" so I am hopeful about a better rifle/barrel. It does really well at 600yd with 73gn bergers and eldm's.

 

[CF Junkie]

charlie b,
I thought you had a 1:9 twist barrel that shot 77 SMKs.
Unless you are changing barrels, I don't think you'll get 80 gr bullets and up to stabilize.

My old Savage factory barrel was also a 1:9 twist.
My new Shilen Select Match barrel is a 1:7 twist in 416R SS.
I am now able to shoot up through 90 gr bullets.
The heavier bullets, that wouldn't stabilize in the 1:9 twist now shoot terrific.

Here is some data on the results with bullet weights so far:
I was surprised that the 90 gr SMKs didn't perform all that great, but I figured out that the newer bullet designs like the 90 gr Berger VLDs are performing better.
70 gr SMKs, 80 ELD-Ms, 80 SMKs all are averaging under 0.2 inches at 100 yards.
The 80 gr Berger VLDs and 73 Berger BTTs are averaging just over 0.2 inches.

Bullet	Weight	Average	St Dev	Best Load	Rank	Best Jump
69 RMR	69	0.230	0.021	0.230	15	0.015
Sierra 69 SMK #1380	69	0.213	0.026	0.202	10	0.018
Berger 70 VLD #22418	70	0.217	0.019	0.207	13	0.014
Nosler 70 RDF #53066	70	0.207	0.014	0.202	8	0.026
Berger 73 BTT #22420	73	0.202	0.043	0.186	6	0.012
Hornady 73 ELD-M #22774	73	0.208	0.031	0.140	7	0.020
Berger 77 OTM #22101	77	0.211	0.022	0.200	9	0.020
Sierra 77 SMK #9377	77	0.188	0.029	0.163	2	0.009
Berger 80 VLD #22422	80	0.201	0.034	0.187	5	0.017
Hornady 80 ELD-M #22831	80	0.199	0.040	0.183	4	0.020
Nosler 80 CC #25116	80	0.226	0.028	0.226	14	0.035
Sierra 80 SMK #9390	80	0.196	0.021	0.188	1	0.026
Hornady 88 ELD-M #22838	88	0.213	0.023	0.206	11	0.045
Berger 90 VLD #22423	90	0.199	0.035	0.182	3	0.006
Sierra 90 SMK #9290	90	0.215	0.010	0.206	12	0.008
	Average	0.206	0.030
	# Groups	180

 

[charlie b]

You are correct. That Savage Axis is only 1:9 and won't shoot anything longer than the 77SMK's, and they have to pushed pretty hard out of that 22" barrel.

I am getting a new barrel for .223 soon (water heater replacement has postponed it again ). It will be a 1:7 and 26" and will be cut for the longer bullets. Not sure which rifle it will go on.

 

[JPB3]

What was or is the verdict on Leverevolution in the .223 with these heavy bullets ?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Thanks for this.

I'm also interested in an F-TR so am looking at 90's or Hornady 88's in a .223. My current .223 is a stock Savage Axis with a 22" barrel. I only shot 77SMK's at 1000yd twice. One was 18" group, the other 15" so I am hopeful about a better rifle/barrel. It does really well at 600yd with 73gn bergers and eldm's.

Let me know and I'll make you a 7 twist with my 230 fb reamer. It's excellent for the 88 ELDM and 90 SMK. Super easy to load. Shoots shockingly well.

 

[charlie b]

I will certainly give you a call when I am ready. I liked your previous threads. So, do you like the .230FB instead of the ISSF for such a job?

 

[urbanrifleman]

I will certainly give you a call when I am ready. I liked your previous threads. So, do you like the .230FB instead of the ISSF for such a job?

I think the 223 ISSF is best for the 80s and Berger 90 vlds just barely. For the 88 ELDM and 90 SMK I would go 223 230fb.

 

[charlie b]

Thanks. I will.

 

[DLT]

charlie b,
I thought you had a 1:9 twist barrel that shot 77 SMKs.
Unless you are changing barrels, I don't think you'll get 80 gr bullets and up to stabilize.

My old Savage factory barrel was also a 1:9 twist.
My new Shilen Select Match barrel is a 1:7 twist in 416R SS.
I am now able to shoot up through 90 gr bullets.
The heavier bullets, that wouldn't stabilize in the 1:9 twist now shoot terrific.

Here is some data on the results with bullet weights so far:
I was surprised that the 90 gr SMKs didn't perform all that great, but I figured out that the newer bullet designs like the 90 gr Berger VLDs are performing better.
70 gr SMKs, 80 ELD-Ms, 80 SMKs all are averaging under 0.2 inches at 100 yards.
The 80 gr Berger VLDs and 73 Berger BTTs are averaging just over 0.2 inches.

Bullet	Weight	Average	St Dev	Best Load	Rank	Best Jump
69 RMR	69	0.230	0.021	0.230	15	0.015
Sierra 69 SMK #1380	69	0.213	0.026	0.202	10	0.018
Berger 70 VLD #22418	70	0.217	0.019	0.207	13	0.014
Nosler 70 RDF #53066	70	0.207	0.014	0.202	8	0.026
Berger 73 BTT #22420	73	0.202	0.043	0.186	6	0.012
Hornady 73 ELD-M #22774	73	0.208	0.031	0.140	7	0.020
Berger 77 OTM #22101	77	0.211	0.022	0.200	9	0.020
Sierra 77 SMK #9377	77	0.188	0.029	0.163	2	0.009
Berger 80 VLD #22422	80	0.201	0.034	0.187	5	0.017
Hornady 80 ELD-M #22831	80	0.199	0.040	0.183	4	0.020
Nosler 80 CC #25116	80	0.226	0.028	0.226	14	0.035
Sierra 80 SMK #9390	80	0.196	0.021	0.188	1	0.026
Hornady 88 ELD-M #22838	88	0.213	0.023	0.206	11	0.045
Berger 90 VLD #22423	90	0.199	0.035	0.182	3	0.006
Sierra 90 SMK #9290	90	0.215	0.010	0.206	12	0.008
	Average	0.206	0.030
	# Groups	180

Is your current barrel a shilen prefit from northland ?

 

[avidflyer]

I think the 223 ISSF is best for the 80s and Berger 90 vlds just barely. For the 88 ELDM and 90 SMK I would go 223 230fb.

90 SMK should be shorter than 90 VLD. 88’s 220 or longer for sure.

 

[urbanrifleman]

90 SMK should be shorter than 90 VLD. 88’s 220 or longer for sure.

The 90 SMK is pretty similar to the 88 ELDM.

 

[avidflyer]

The 90 SMK is pretty similar to the 88 ELDM.

I must have some pretty old lots. I’ll measure them again

 

[urbanrifleman]

I must have some pretty old lots. I’ll measure them again

I'm talking about where the pressure ring ends up in the case seating to the lands using my 230 fb reamer. They both sit in about the same place. I'm not sure how you are measuring them. The overall length of the bullet was not my concern.

 

[avidflyer]

I'm talking about where the pressure ring ends up in the case seating to the lands using my 230 fb reamer. They both sit in about the same place. I'm not sure how you are measuring them. The overall length of the bullet was not my concern.

Base to ogive, agree oal shouldn’t matter. If I remember 88’s were .020 - .030 longer than SMK and thought SMK 90 was .010-.015 shorter than VLD Haven’t shot the 85.5

 

[urbanrifleman]

Base to ogive, agree oal shouldn’t matter. If I remember 88’s were .020 - .030 longer than SMK and thought SMK 90 was .010-.015 shorter than VLD Haven’t shot the 85.5

Here is the 223 ISSF 169 freebore. It will certainly work on new brass, but for me it's too close to the donut.

If the 90 vlds were even longer it would be even worse.



I want to see them seated more like the 80 smk.

 

[avidflyer]

Here is the 223 ISSF 169 freebore. It will certainly work on new brass, but for me it's too close to the donut.

If the 90 vlds were even longer it would be even worse.

View attachment 1694048View attachment 1694049

I want to see them seated more like the 80 smk.

Do you have a picture of the 90 VLD? Just curious thanks for posting the pics