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223 FTR Bullets

Slowrunning

Silver $$ Contributor
With the 200.20x and the 180 hybrid being the choices of most shooters in their respective classes, is there an undisputed 223 bullet choice for mid-range FTR?

Currently planning on the 80.5 berger in a 7.5 twist 30" Krieger with a .169 freebore but its not too late. I've read nearly every thread I can find on the topic and there doesn't seem to be a clear winner in 600yd 223 bullets. I'm hoping to not waste time or reinvent any wheels.
 
For 300yd the 80.5 is the best by far, falls off at 500, and sacrifices significantly at 600. Beyond 300 the 90vld performs well, but you might not have adequate twist.
 
Most shooters are running one of these:

85.5
90vld
95 sierra (if they'd make more)
90 sierra
88eldm

You may see a few running an 80 of some sort or the 90 atip but not as many
I've seen mixed reviews on the 85.5 but I think the 7.5 twist should stabilize them.
 
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I use Berger 80 VLD with great success out to 600. Never could get the 90gr to shoot well. Wylde chamber, 1/7 twist, 25.0 Varget, -005 off lands.
 
If you go 7 twist I would recommend a .219" bore. I have shot 90SMK 90 VLD and 95 SMK all with very good results. The 88 eldm are not bad , you will likely want a bit more freebore with these
 
Now is the time to do your build right, and you're spot on in not wanting to waste time or re-invent the wheel. My advice is to obtain a 7-twist, 30", 0.219" bore barrel, which means Bartlein or Brux. Without going into further detail (of which there is simply more than I am willing to cover at the moment), you might well be sorry if you don't. There are numerous posts on the subject containing info from shooters that have had success running .223s in F-TR here in the "Small Stuff - 22s, 20s, and 17s" Forum.

For bullets - my advice would be to pass on the 80-something grain offerings. They are not going to work even close to as well as the 85.5-, 88-, 90-, or 95-gr offerings when the wind comes up. They simply won't. The downside to that advice is that it requires a faster twist rate (hence the 7-twist barrel) and the longer, heavier bullets have a greater potential for jacket failure if pushed hard (hence the 0.219" bore barrel instead of a 0.218" bore).

As far as selecting specific bullet(s), you will have to make a choice as far as which bullet(s) the freebore of the chamber is optimized for. If you go with 0.169" freebore, you will be able to load 85.5s, or the 90s, although IMO an "optimal" freebore for those bullets would be something a tad longer; more like 0.195" to 0.200". The 0.169" freebore is much shorter than would be optimal for the 88 ELDMs or 95 gr SMKs. Thus, I would separate the 85.5/90 SMK/90VLD bullets from the 88/95 bullets in terms of optimized freebore. I have shot all of these bullets in F-TR matches with the exception of the 85.5, which just kind of leaves me scratching my head. I am highly partial to the mighty 90 VLD, but on occasion some shooters have struggled to get them shooting to their satisfaction. I personally have never had any problem tuning the 90s, but ease of tuning is still be a consideration with any of the 85-95 gr bullets. All have been used successfully, but one can also find instances where someone struggled to get one or the other tuned in for reasons that are not always clear.

As a final consideration if you have already obtained the barrel and/or are locked into the reamer choice: you might want to check out the Hornady ELDM 75 and 80 gr bullets. A 7.5-twist barrel might be a tad slow for the 80s, but might still work acceptably, and would definitely work for the 75s. The reasoning here is simply that the BCs for these bullets greatly exceed any other bullets in their weight class. I have been using the 75 ELDMs lately in a practice rifle and I am very surprised at how well they shoot. The 75 ELDM has a BC even higher than the 80.5 Fullbore (0.238 vs 0.226 G7), which I also shoot in that rifle, and they tuned in with at least equal precision in my hands. I have not used the 80 ELDM, but its BC is almost as high as that of the 85.5 ( 0.258 vs 0.268 G7). If the 80s tune in as well as the 75s, they could be a formidable choice for F-TR matches. In both cases, the lighter weight of the ELDM bullets would potentially allow them to be driven a bit faster in tuned loads. A 0.169" freebore might be a bit more than is necessary with the 75 ELDM. However, it is the other direction that causes problems; i.e. too short a freebore necessitates sinking a bullet miuch deeper in the case, thereby reducing effective case volume and increasing pressure at a given velocity. One can always try to tune a bullet in with a longer jump, if necessary.

Regardless of the direction you choose, match the chamber specs (i.e. freebore) to the class of bullet you decide to use. If you aren't already locked into the 7.5-twist barrel, I would again strongly advise that you go with a 7-twist and a 0.219" bore. Best of luck with it.
 
Nedd is spot on, however if you are dead set on a Krieger, then going down to 28 inches and 7 twist is probably a safe option. While I prefer a .219 bore, my .218 7 twist Krieger is a very good barrel and the 28 inch length should help prevent bullet blow ups.
 
Nedd is spot on, however if you are dead set on a Krieger, then going down to 28 inches and 7 twist is probably a safe option. While I prefer a .219 bore, my .218 7 twist Krieger is a very good barrel and the 28 inch length should help prevent bullet blow ups.
I’m curious to your barrel length suggestion. Are you saying the shorter the barrel, the less friction on the bullet ? The reason I ask is I. Shooting a 6.8 twist finished at 33”. I’ve mainly been shooting 80smk at 300 but have shot just enough 85.5 to make sure the load is going to shoot. I’m not sure of velocity but I would hate to travel to a match just to blow up bullets.
Thanks,
Blake
 
I’m curious to your barrel length suggestion. Are you saying the shorter the barrel, the less friction on the bullet ? The reason I ask is I. Shooting a 6.8 twist finished at 33”. I’ve mainly been shooting 80smk at 300 but have shot just enough 85.5 to make sure the load is going to shoot. I’m not sure of velocity but I would hate to travel to a match just to blow up bullets.
Thanks,
Blake
That's the unproven assumption. Less friction and whatelse that comes with it.

Are you shooting a 223rem case? Why not heavier bullets with the 6.8? What speeds on the longer barrel are you running?
 
Yes 223 rem. I have 85.5 and 90s but haven’t shot them yet as I haven’t shot any long range matches. What few matches I have shot with it have been at 300 yards and I didn’t figure I needed to waste $.50 per shot when my old 80smk left over from my service rifle days will clean targets.
 
I’m curious to your barrel length suggestion. Are you saying the shorter the barrel, the less friction on the bullet ? The reason I ask is I. Shooting a 6.8 twist finished at 33”. I’ve mainly been shooting 80smk at 300 but have shot just enough 85.5 to make sure the load is going to shoot. I’m not sure of velocity but I would hate to travel to a match just to blow up bullets.
Thanks,
Blake
The shorter the barrel, the less friction heat will be generated, with all else such as bullet choice, velocity, twist rate, and bore/groove configuration remaining the same. That is simple physics. However, stating that some specific barrel length will be associated with jacket failure cannot realistically be done with certainty because other contributing factors such as twist rate, bore/groove configuration, bullet velocity, bullet bearing surface length factor into the equation. Nonetheless, I think it would be fairly safe to state that if all else is equal, a 26", or 28" barrel isn't going to put the same amount of heat and/or stress into the bullet that a 30" barrel would. Exactly where in terms of barrel length the specific cutoff point for jacket failure might be is almost an unanswerable question due to the involvement of the other contributing factors.

In terms of realistic expectations, a 33" barrel is pretty long and would potentially put a checkmark in the "unfavorable" column, in terms of increrasing the potential for jacket failure. Likewise, a twist rate faster than 7.0 might be considered "unfavorable" in combination with certain other features. For example, you didn't mention whether you were using a 0.218" or 0.219" bore barrel. A 0.219" bore would be a checkmark under "favorable", whereas a 0.218" bore might be considered "unfavorable", and would combine to place the 6.8-twist rate in the "unfavorable" column. In contrast, the bearing surface lengths of the bullets you're using range from just a tiny bit shorter (85.5s) to much shorter (80 SMKs) than the Berger 90 VLD, a bullet known to suffer jacket failures under conditions where too many of the "unfavorable" factors combine. The shorter bearing surface lengths would be considered a "positive". You also didn't mention the velocities you are obtaining with these bullets, which can also be a contributing factor if very high, or a positive factor if moderate.

The bottom line is that there is no realistic way to add up all the potential positives and negatives and come up with any "quantifiable" answer. Bullet manufacturers will often state that it is unwise to push bullets past 300K RPM, but that is also a rather nebulous term when used by itself. At some point, you just have to shoot the load and see what happens. I am all too aware of the frustration involved in having a jacket failure occur during a match, but unless every single indicator is pointing toward an extremely high likelihood of jacket failure, you can't know with certainty that it's coming. The more you test and/or practice with the load, the more confidence you may be able to develop that nothing bad is going to happen.

FWIW - because I know with certainty that several contributing factors are going against me in terms of potential jacket failure with one of my F-TR rifles, I worked up a method to try and lessen the odds that it would happen during a match. Because the jacket failures I have had in the past usually occured once I had put at least 40-50 rounds down the barrel during practice or at a match, my idea was simply to remove a fair bit of the carbon fouling after each of the first two matches of the day (three matches per day total). I run three or four patches wetted with Kroil while the barrel is still hot, followed by three or four dry patches. This removes a substantial amount of carbon fouling, but will not "un-season" the barrel by removing any copper. I tested this approach several times during practice to convince myself the first sighter after this cleaning process (i.e. for the next match) isn't totally wasted. What I have found is that it might be just a tick low, but not so low as to drop out of the 10-ring. Thus, I am not wasting a sighter by cleaning the barrel in this manner. More importantly, I have never once lost a jacket in match after I instituted this cleaning procedure, even in a tight bore, fast twist barrel that had been known to cause jacket failures. So it works. Yes, it's a PITA to have to do this at a match. Nonetheless, it's not nearly as painful as losing a bullet (and the match) due to a jacket failure. I am not suggesting that you need to adopt this approach, merely offering it as an option in the event you have stronger reason to believe your load is at high risk of causing jacket failure. At this point, I don't think there is sufficient evidence to point one way or the other. So I would just try the load out first, and see what happens. It may be that you need to be concerned about it. But it may be that it's simply not an issue at all in your setup.
 
Wow. Great post. I think we have the ga state championship mid range match coming up next month so I will be testing the 85.5 more. What little testing I have done has shot 1.5 inches at 300 yards. That’s with sling and irons so I don’t think I can hold much better than that. That’s only 5 shot groups so I need to shoot some 20 shot strings to really get it hot and fouled. I’m not pushing the velocities really hard so I may be in the clear.
Thanks for the info,
Blake
 
Now is the time to do your build right, and you're spot on in not wanting to waste time or re-invent the wheel. My advice is to obtain a 7-twist, 30", 0.219" bore barrel, which means Bartlein or Brux. Without going into further detail (of which there is simply more than I am willing to cover at the moment), you might well be sorry if you don't. There are numerous posts on the subject containing info from shooters that have had success running .223s in F-TR here in the "Small Stuff - 22s, 20s, and 17s" Forum.

For bullets - my advice would be to pass on the 80-something grain offerings. They are not going to work even close to as well as the 85.5-, 88-, 90-, or 95-gr offerings when the wind comes up. They simply won't. The downside to that advice is that it requires a faster twist rate (hence the 7-twist barrel) and the longer, heavier bullets have a greater potential for jacket failure if pushed hard (hence the 0.219" bore barrel instead of a 0.218" bore).

As far as selecting specific bullet(s), you will have to make a choice as far as which bullet(s) the freebore of the chamber is optimized for. If you go with 0.169" freebore, you will be able to load 85.5s, or the 90s, although IMO an "optimal" freebore for those bullets would be something a tad longer; more like 0.195" to 0.200". The 0.169" freebore is much shorter than would be optimal for the 88 ELDMs or 95 gr SMKs. Thus, I would separate the 85.5/90 SMK/90VLD bullets from the 88/95 bullets in terms of optimized freebore. I have shot all of these bullets in F-TR matches with the exception of the 85.5, which just kind of leaves me scratching my head. I am highly partial to the mighty 90 VLD, but on occasion some shooters have struggled to get them shooting to their satisfaction. I personally have never had any problem tuning the 90s, but ease of tuning is still be a consideration with any of the 85-95 gr bullets. All have been used successfully, but one can also find instances where someone struggled to get one or the other tuned in for reasons that are not always clear.

As a final consideration if you have already obtained the barrel and/or are locked into the reamer choice: you might want to check out the Hornady ELDM 75 and 80 gr bullets. A 7.5-twist barrel might be a tad slow for the 80s, but might still work acceptably, and would definitely work for the 75s. The reasoning here is simply that the BCs for these bullets greatly exceed any other bullets in their weight class. I have been using the 75 ELDMs lately in a practice rifle and I am very surprised at how well they shoot. The 75 ELDM has a BC even higher than the 80.5 Fullbore (0.238 vs 0.226 G7), which I also shoot in that rifle, and they tuned in with at least equal precision in my hands. I have not used the 80 ELDM, but its BC is almost as high as that of the 85.5 ( 0.258 vs 0.268 G7). If the 80s tune in as well as the 75s, they could be a formidable choice for F-TR matches. In both cases, the lighter weight of the ELDM bullets would potentially allow them to be driven a bit faster in tuned loads. A 0.169" freebore might be a bit more than is necessary with the 75 ELDM. However, it is the other direction that causes problems; i.e. too short a freebore necessitates sinking a bullet miuch deeper in the case, thereby reducing effective case volume and increasing pressure at a given velocity. One can always try to tune a bullet in with a longer jump, if necessary.

Regardless of the direction you choose, match the chamber specs (i.e. freebore) to the class of bullet you decide to use. If you aren't already locked into the 7.5-twist barrel, I would again strongly advise that you go with a 7-twist and a 0.219" bore. Best of luck with it.
Thanks averyone for the advice. I have a Krieger 7.5 twist 218 bore 4 groove barrel that I bought prior to making this thread, probably would have ordered a 7 twist based on your advice. I've have talked to several guys who are running the 85.5 bergers very successfully from 7.5 twist barrels though. I think I'm going to get this barrel spun up with a .169 freebore and give it a shot. If I don't get the results at 600yds with the 85.5's I'll probably turn this into a varmint barrel and get another barrel in 7 twist. The BC difference between the 90vld and 85.5 seems pretty negligible so if I can steer wide around any blow-up issues with the 90 class bullets that will be a plus.
 
I like you plan to try it and repurpose if necessary. I have gotten caught in similar predicaments. Sometimes spending 400 on the right blank is cheaper than doing the metal work on the wrong blank and having to do it twice.
On a similar topic, what is the typical barrel life with this application ? It is a bartlein 5r if that matters.
Thanks,
Blake
 
Thanks averyone for the advice. I have a Krieger 7.5 twist 218 bore 4 groove barrel that I bought prior to making this thread, probably would have ordered a 7 twist based on your advice. I've have talked to several guys who are running the 85.5 bergers very successfully from 7.5 twist barrels though. I think I'm going to get this barrel spun up with a .169 freebore and give it a shot. If I don't get the results at 600yds with the 85.5's I'll probably turn this into a varmint barrel and get another barrel in 7 twist. The BC difference between the 90vld and 85.5 seems pretty negligible so if I can steer wide around any blow-up issues with the 90 class bullets that will be a plus.
It may seem like the difference in bearing surface length between the 85.5s and 90 is negligible. However, the margin where jacket failures start to occur can be very thin, and even seemingly minor or subtle changes can sometimes make all the difference. The bottom line is that pushing bullets hard is ultimately what will lead to jacket failures. If one runs the numbers in a ballistic calculator, they will readily see that dropping velocity down slightly to the next slower accuracy region typically causes only minimal loss in terms of wind deflection. In fact, I would venture to say that some/many might not even be able to reliably shoot the difference. But it can make a huge difference in terms of the propensity for jacket failures and extending brass life.

As an example, there is a very nice accuracy region running 90 VLDs at ~2850 fps using H4895 from a 30" barrel. But doing so increases the risk of jacket failure as brass life is terrible. Running the same bullet/setup at ~2775 fps will extend brass life markedly and jacket failure becomes essentially a non-issue. The difference in predicted windage at 600 yd between these two loads is ~0.9" for a full-value 10 mph wind. If one can reliably make wind calls to 3 mph, the difference would effectively be only ~0.3". Although statistically it could still make a difference over the long haul, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that very few shooters could shoot a 0.3" difference at 600 yd. That is so far below a typical group spread at 600 yd that it becomes meaningless in terms of the total error.

I would re-iterate that simply being aware of the potential for jacket failures is a large part of the battle against them. Living in fear that one could happen at any moment in a match is not a good place to be. So do what you can to minimize the risk, shoot regularly so you know how the rifle setup and load will typically behave, and then worry about the issue of jacket failures only if there is a tangible reason to. As mentioned, slowing down the velocity is one approach if it becomes necessary, or even cleaning in between matches. But it may not be necessary to do either one of those things.

...On a similar topic, what is the typical barrel life with this application ? It is a bartlein 5r if that matters.
Thanks,
Blake
In my hands, .224" 5R Bartlein barrels when shooting "heavies" pushed fairly hard seem to start showing signs of extreme wear at around 2000 rounds. It's much sooner than I would have thought, but perhaps not so surprising when one thinks about what we're really doing when we shoot heavies with stout loads as compared to much lighter commercial loads with light bullets. It might be possible (if there is room) to re-throat a barrel and thus re-gain a bit more life, but I have never tried this with a .224" barrel.
 
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