Winchester has a new line of ammunition out called the super-x Power Max. in 223 rem they have a 64grain bonded pointed HP. They say that it is good for whitetail sized game. My train of thought has always been that 223 is too small for whitetail. I was just wondering if anyone has used 223 on medium deer sized game with any success, and wondering what peoples thoughts were on this new line of ammo? Thanks!
223 for whitetail?
- Thread starter mao0720
- Start date
Down in Texas, you can use any centerfire cartridge for deer hunting. I have seen deer killed cleanly with a .223 and a .22-250. These were with very accurate "stand gun" rifles and the deer were shot at the junction of the neck and body. The bullets were placed with precision. I have shot somewhere around a dump truck full of deer and deer sized game. A well placed bullet of controlled expansion will tear up the lungs and no animal can live long breathing blood. BUT having said that, it is also, my opinion, that enough energy needs to be released to cause that expanding bullet to destroy enough tissue and cause enough hemorrhage to effect a QUICK KILL.. That's where I believe that a "good" 6mm should be the minimum for that sized game. If the bullet does not have enough weight and the ability to stay together and BLOW THROUGH a deer, your chances of seeing any blood trail is slim at best. There is a major debate about whether to "dump the energy" or "blow thru">>I am a "blow-thru" believer because you will get a good blood trail. Will a deer die without any lungs>>YES SIR! But he may run off for several hundred yards and if you can't track him you MAY lose him! Will a .223 with a Barnes TSX blow thru>>you bet and I would not have a problem with a .223 at say 200 or so yards using one of those excellent bullets. But take that same bullet in a .223 out to 350-500 yards and the energy level is so low that major tissue destruction becomes nearly impossible and a large enough "blow-thru" to find a good blood trail may not exist! The deer will die, however you may not find him..
I have killed two deer now with a .223. Both were shot through both lungs made two hops, looked around for a couple seconds and tipped over. I used GS Custom HV copper bullets at 3800 fps (40g) on both deer with full penetration. The bullets liquified the lungs and the deer just died. No muss, no fuss. The 8 pt KY whitetail was killed at about 30 yards and the doe was killed at about 125 yards.
Hope that helps.
Hope that helps.
Have culled my share using .223 w/55 V-Max. Mostly center brain shots at 20-25yds on bait in urban settings. However...
Sometimes we will be in larger parks, golf courses or more open suburbs where secondary targets are 50-200yds out. None ever made it over 40yds on a picture-perfect broadside shot 1/3 up from the bottom and 4" behind the front leg. Everything north of the diaphragm is emulsified soup that pours out when you unzip them for processing. This is NOT a bullet that I would recommend for hunting season as you must pick your shots with absolute certainty.
This new ammo from Olin is a pretty good answer for all of the AR shooters that want maximum lethality for deer in their chosen rifle. However, I would still caution anyone to be very selective on shot angles compared to larger callers with heavier bullet weights. It's not one of those bullets that will give reliable penetration on steep quartering shots at a 250# whitetail.
Sometimes we will be in larger parks, golf courses or more open suburbs where secondary targets are 50-200yds out. None ever made it over 40yds on a picture-perfect broadside shot 1/3 up from the bottom and 4" behind the front leg. Everything north of the diaphragm is emulsified soup that pours out when you unzip them for processing. This is NOT a bullet that I would recommend for hunting season as you must pick your shots with absolute certainty.
This new ammo from Olin is a pretty good answer for all of the AR shooters that want maximum lethality for deer in their chosen rifle. However, I would still caution anyone to be very selective on shot angles compared to larger callers with heavier bullet weights. It's not one of those bullets that will give reliable penetration on steep quartering shots at a 250# whitetail.
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
The Winchester 64 gr bullet is actually pretty decent. I only shot one buck with the 64 gr. that weighed 190# live weight thru front shoulder & was under the opposite hide. Went about 30 yds. If you are going shoot deer with it, load the all copper Barnes. If you have a 9 twist or faster it will stabilize the 62 gr TSX bullet. Like shooting dots, I have shot a bunch of them with this bullet. It will pentrate both shoulders with a large exit hole. Never had one go more than 30 yds & most are DRT. I run 24grs of Benchmark with that bullet. The BEST shot is the junction of the neck & shoulder as noted before. DRT. The tracking is about 36" straight down.
There are better options but some of the biggest deer I have shot are with a 223. the high neck shot from a stand when culling is awesome and if you do your job there are DRT every time. As others have said its a round that's fine when you have a perfect shot or from a stand but not something I would take into the field if I was stalking where shots can be fast and you may not get a perfect neck or broadside shot.
I would trust a lot of guys to kill deer with a .223. I consider myself capable of doing it, but I would never hunt where I do for deer with anything smaller than a 270 Win. I would hate to see a 300 lb monster mule deer and have nothing more than a .223 to put it down with.
What bothers me the most is a reputable company like Winchester suggesting and even encouraging your weekend warrior who breaks out his rifle once a year to go deer hunting with a .223.
I'm with ShootDots in that I want two holes for blood to flow out of. Ideally I want a lot of energy dumped inside the animal with some of that energy blowing a hole out the other side. If I have to track, I want a blood trail that is huge.
What bothers me the most is a reputable company like Winchester suggesting and even encouraging your weekend warrior who breaks out his rifle once a year to go deer hunting with a .223.
I'm with ShootDots in that I want two holes for blood to flow out of. Ideally I want a lot of energy dumped inside the animal with some of that energy blowing a hole out the other side. If I have to track, I want a blood trail that is huge.
I have killed a number of deer with a 22LR. Put one in their ear or through an eye and they are dead. Even killed some with behind the shoulder broadside lung shots. These were shot as targets of necessity for the meat to feed the family during ruff times. This does not make the 22LR a deer hunting caliber. Yes the 223 will kill any deer that ever walked and yes they are making better bullets BUT that still does not make the 223 a deer hunting caliber in my book. Deer don't always stand still and they don't always present that PERFECT shot angle and when that happens bad things happen. A 243 Winchester shooting a 100 gr bullet is what I classify the bottom end of a real deer caliber.
I've killed deer with shotguns shooting buckshot, shotguns with slugs, muzzleloaders, pistols, centerfires over .223, .223, arrows, 22LR, etc.
To me a bolt action .223 with a good deer load is a much more reliable tool for the job than archery, muzzleloader, pistols, 22LR, or a shogtun with either buckshot or slugs.
It is only inferior to larger caliber centerfires, and here only slightly in suboptimal circumstances: shots over 200 yards, shots through brush, moving targets, etc.
If I had to kill deer to feed my family, a .223 Rem is not near as big a handicap as archery or slug gun.
To me a bolt action .223 with a good deer load is a much more reliable tool for the job than archery, muzzleloader, pistols, 22LR, or a shogtun with either buckshot or slugs.
It is only inferior to larger caliber centerfires, and here only slightly in suboptimal circumstances: shots over 200 yards, shots through brush, moving targets, etc.
If I had to kill deer to feed my family, a .223 Rem is not near as big a handicap as archery or slug gun.
+ 12506 said:
If I only owned a .223 I wouldn't quit deer hunting but I certainly wouldn't buy a .223 to deer hunt with. I have killed lots of deer from 70lb deer to 240lb deer with many different rifles over the last 40 years. One thing I have learned is that some deer will run when they are shot unless they are hit in the spine or the brain no matter how powerfull your rifle is. It is thick around here and deer that run even if only 100 yards sometimes are hard to find unless they bleed. I like full penetration...... the exit hole is the one that bleeds. I think 6mm-.243 with good quality hunting bullets is on the bottom end for a deer hunting rifle. If all your hunting is from a stand and you take shots where you and your gear can always put them with 1" of right where you want them anything will work.
Why try to make something out of a rifle caliber that it isn't? Since I'm a predator and varmint hunter I own a dozen or so varmint/predator rifles from 221 Fireball to the 243. Each has a specific purpose. If you are looking for a predator rifle that would also serve as a deer rifle, get a 243.
If all you have is a .223, find the right bullet and use it.
Just be mindful of shot angles to avoid the shoulder and go for the high percentage, double-pneumothorax shot. They will die equally as dead as if they were shot with anything else and they won't waste much time about doing it.
Just be mindful of shot angles to avoid the shoulder and go for the high percentage, double-pneumothorax shot. They will die equally as dead as if they were shot with anything else and they won't waste much time about doing it.
jpretle
Gold $$ Contributor
Minimum 6mm/243 for deer, in my book. Don't know how many hunters,I've talked to that were/are, die-hard users of the 223 for deer, and they have never lost a critter, w/ 50g and 55g bullets, no less. Seems to me, there are a lot of tall tales for the 223 and deer. No sense in arguing the matter.
The wide assortment of bullets available for .223 today certainly makes it a viable deer-hunting cartridge, bolt-action or not. Remember, the caliber was designed to kill 180-lb. humans (though they probably didn't specify "clean" kills). The only caveat I would put on the .223 and deer is that the shooter knows his weapon and can put the bullet in the right place.
I have a friend who has shot "uncounted" deer with a .22 Hornet and swears not one has ever taken a second shot. He shoots only head shots, preferably in or behind the ear, and claims they "go down like they've been hit by lightning". Last spring he shot a 240-lb. black bear from a blind with a single .22 Hornet shot exactly between the eyes. He said the bear went down so fast he didn't believe it. His wife was in the blind with him and remarked that "no way" she was getting out of the blind because that bear couldn't have gone down that fast. He waited five minutes with no signs of movement and went to look. When he dressed him out, he said the brain had literally been turned to mush and it had been an instant kill. Last fall he took a moose with a single behind-the-ear shot from the Hornet. Pretty interesting considering I used to handload several boxes of .300 Weatherby Magnum for him every year. He says never again with a rig that big.
I have a friend who has shot "uncounted" deer with a .22 Hornet and swears not one has ever taken a second shot. He shoots only head shots, preferably in or behind the ear, and claims they "go down like they've been hit by lightning". Last spring he shot a 240-lb. black bear from a blind with a single .22 Hornet shot exactly between the eyes. He said the bear went down so fast he didn't believe it. His wife was in the blind with him and remarked that "no way" she was getting out of the blind because that bear couldn't have gone down that fast. He waited five minutes with no signs of movement and went to look. When he dressed him out, he said the brain had literally been turned to mush and it had been an instant kill. Last fall he took a moose with a single behind-the-ear shot from the Hornet. Pretty interesting considering I used to handload several boxes of .300 Weatherby Magnum for him every year. He says never again with a rig that big.
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