223 Case Prep ?'s

[Thumb]

I've been reloading these for two years now and some of them have been reloaded 3 times and a couple questions came up. I know the data books say to trim the .223 cases down to 1.750" But is this really needed or that important for just plinking? The other question I have is that it is said that the cases "stretch" when shooting them and to this time, I have not seen that on my cases with only .001" and maybe .002" difference after shooting them.

I do understand that the longer the case is that the bullet will be seated further into the case. I also noticed that when using bullets with cannelure that the cannelure does not even begin to go into the case, if the case is trimmed to 1.750" should they not go into the case?

I even tested some factory ammo and their cases were as much as 1.755 to 1.760" so I'm stumped.

Here's a pic of an X-Treme 55gr FMJ w/c with a case length of 1.750 and OAL of 2.255"

 

[loneranger04]

You didn't say what type of rifle you are shooting these in but if you are shooting an AR then they are notorious for stretching brass. I know that trimming brass is a pain but brass that is too long can cause excessive pressure. Get a Worlds Finest Trimmer and chuck it up in your drill and knock out a bunch of brass at one time. When I was shooting a lot of 3 gun I'd spend the winter prepping AR brass so I wouldn't have to do it during shooting season. When it comes down to it reloading for ARs is a loser when you can buy good factory for under $400 a case.

 

[rtpnc]

Also guessing AR usage here, considering the Xtreme 55gr FMJBT w/cannelure loading...
Brass may or may not stretch much in shooting in your particular gun, but - measure it before and after sizing. Sizing will effectively push any 'extra' brass in the only direction it has to go, growing the neck.

How long you may be able to go w/out trimming is really specific to your chamber - some may be significantly longer/looser or shorter/tighter than others.
I've seen plenty of .223/5.56 brass in the 1.74X" range after firing - both Federal and LC are coming to mind here.

RE: round OAL - from your pic, it looks like you're using a Lee Factory Crimp Die, so even moreso - if the bullet's got a cannelure, seat to mid-cannelure, and crimp lightly. I've loaded up some Xtreme 55gr before, and with my dies, don't recall needing to adjust between Hornady 55gr FMJBT and the Xtremes, but grabbing a random Xtreme round, I've got an OAL of 2.230" on the nose, centered in cannelure.

I've shot plenty of them and others, all to mid-cannelure - you're not going to cause major issues by going the tiny bit shorter to seat to mid-cannelure, short of playing around w/max loads w/out working up. FWIW, I've yet to get Xtreme 55gr FMJBTs to come close to the accuracy of Hornadys. Hornady's are 1MOA or slightly less in my rifle, the Xtremes more like 2MOA+, and that's at 50-100yards; they get worse from there, for me. That blows, as I have several thousand of them, so am slowly getting around to doing some more load testing - while I can load up thousands of Hornady 55grs w/24.5-25gr of TAC and be 1MOA happy, I can't seem to get the Xtremes to follow suit, with the best load to date being with 8208XBR.

 

[mikecr]

Assuming it's not an AR, I wouldn't pay any attention to a cannelure, but instead to seating producing best accuracy. As far as case length, you can measure chamber end to determine max trim length. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/sinclair-chamber-length-gage-prod32925.aspx
You can watch case mouths for shiny spots on ejection as a backup. Trim length itself just needs to be clear of chamber end, and ideally you would have cases trimmed to same length nearest chamber end.

Do not trim them all to a shortest case length just to get them the same. That's just going to increase ES and there is no basis for doing something so reckless.

Again, this with a bolt action.

 

[Thumb]

Yes, I am loading for my AR's and my go-to load for them so far is what I posted earlier using 23.5gr of 4064. That load gets me about 1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yds. I was surprised using that powder because I had tried Varget before and it was no where close to 4064.

I do have a trimmer set up in my lathe and I try to go through at least a few hundred per day.

I'll try testing out some of those X-Treme bullets pressed in to at least half of the cannelure and see what it does. Oh, yes I am using the Lee die and I have the crimp set at almost max right now.

 

[Thumb]

Hey guys, just want to make it clear that I'm not questioning the reasons for all this, just the actual numbers. I have my case trimmer set to 1.755 because that's what works good in my AR's and I do trim them after shooting them. I was just wondering about he published numbers the books have.

 

[rtpnc]

Trimming to 1.755" is fine, IMO, especially if trimming and fully processing after every loading..

You might want to also try backing off the FCD a bit - the rifle FCDs are a set of outer rings that compress down onto the bullet/case mouth - look down the top of the die without a case in it, and note the distance between the die/collet pieces - adjust to close roughly halfway when you have a loaded case fully up on the press... I think I found my 'happy spot' around there, or turn down to just contact case mouth and 1/3-1/2 turn from there.

YMMV, but it is possible to overtrump and impact accuracy...

 

[Shynloco]

Also guessing AR usage here, considering the Xtreme 55gr FMJBT w/cannelure loading...
Brass may or may not stretch much in shooting in your particular gun, but - measure it before and after sizing.

I've shot plenty of them and others, all to mid-cannelure - .... the best load to date being with 8208XBR.

Thumb,
FWIW, I load for my son's AR and he and his buddies (and we're talking 35 yr old kids) plink the heck of of them using the Xtreme 55gr FMJ bullets. I also load to mid cannelure and actually get excellent accuracy for cheap bullets. I also measure the casings after firing and keep them to 1.750 but don't get much case stretching at all, probably because of the lighter powder load in the 25 gr region. Now I trim to 1.750 mostly because I also load for his .223 bolt gun (different brass) and I trim to keep the donut from forming that is caused by the longer casings. Works for me on both rifles.

Alex

 

[CatShooter]

That load gets me about 1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yds.

1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yards?? From an AR??

Then don't listen to ANYBODY and don't change a thing... you cannot get better than that.

 

[dmoran]

Yes, I am loading for my AR's and my go-to load for them so far is what I posted earlier using 23.5gr of 4064. That load gets me about 1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yds.

As was stated above, don't change nothing and keep repeating what you've been doing exactly every time.
Don't see how you could ever do better then what your getting already.

 

[bigedp51]

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I trim all my .223/5.56 cases to 1.750 and all my firearm cases to the minimum trim length.

I also seat "ALL" bullets with a cannelure to the midpoint of the cannelure and crimp on my hunting and "blasting" ammo. On all other ammunition loaded for my AR15 like the Sierra 69 gr HPBT MatchKing no crimp is applied. All the crimps for the .223/5.56 are taper crimps using RCBS AR Series Dies.

Bottom line if the bullet has a cannelure it is crimped at the midpoint of the cannelure with a "light" taper crimp.

As you can see below the Hornady 55 gr Green Tip Z-Max bullet has a cannelure and designed for mass Zombies attacks with your AR15 rifle.

The red tip V-Max bullet bullet without a cannelure is designed for your .223 bolt action and making accurate head shots at 200 yards.

As you can see below the scoring method for bullets without a cannelure are held to a higher standards.

And Sierra bullets designed for AR15 sniper ammunition only has light half cannelures and light taper crimps.

All humor aside the vast majority of match grade ammunition loaded for the AR15 rifle is "NOT" crimped.

 

[Thumb]

Oooops, I meant to type 100yds, not 200 but still not bad grouping. ;D

I just loaded up some with the cannelure half way into the case and I'll test it out maybe today if it doesn't start raining too much. The oal is about 2.248 with the bullets in that far.

 

[dmoran]

Oooops, I meant to type 100yds, not 200 but still not bad grouping. ;D

No matter, 1/2" from 10 shots at 100 with an AR, is still as good as it gets !.!.!
Again as stated above, DON'T CHANGE NOTHING and keep repeating what you've been doing EXACTLY THE SAME EVERY TIME.
You must not realize the reality of how good of performance that is: It's like perfection as is !.!.!

 

[CatShooter]

Oooops, I meant to type 100yds, not 200 but still not bad grouping. ;D

No matter, 1/2" from 10 shots at 100 with an AR, is still as good as it gets !.!.!
Again as stated above, DON'T CHANGE NOTHING and keep repeating what you've been doing EXACTLY THE SAME EVERY TIME.
You must not realize the reality of how good of performance that is: It's like perfection as is !.!.!

It is BETTER than perfection !.!.!

 

[fredhorace77]

Oooops, I meant to type 100yds, not 200 but still not bad grouping. ;D

No matter, 1/2" from 10 shots at 100 with an AR, is still as good as it gets !.!.!
Again as stated above, DON'T CHANGE NOTHING and keep repeating what you've been doing EXACTLY THE SAME EVERY TIME.
You must not realize the reality of how good of performance that is: It's like perfection as is !.!.!

It is BETTER than perfection !.!.!

It's almost unbelievable....almost..

 

[rtpnc]

That load gets me about 1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yds.

1/2" 10 round groups at 200 yards?? From an AR??

Then don't listen to ANYBODY and don't change a thing... you cannot get better than that.

Holy crap - missed that.
Yeah, I wouldn't touch a thing if that's true - 1/4MOA from an AR?
I do have some doubts, though.. ;D

 

[rtpnc]

Oooops, I meant to type 100yds, not 200 but still not bad grouping. ;D

I just loaded up some with the cannelure half way into the case and I'll test it out maybe today if it doesn't start raining too much. The oal is about 2.248 with the bullets in that far.

Agreeing with everyone else - even more surprised you're getting that w/Xtremes. I like their pistol plated ammo well enough, but most, myself included, relegate the Xtreme 55gr to 100yds and in, while I've run the Hornady pretty successfully out to 300.

If you're really getting 1/2MOA from the Xtreme, I'd change very little on your loads, but also I'd be curious to how well your rifle runs the Hornady 55gr FMJBT or SPs...

 

[bigedp51]

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I have two AR 15 rifles, a 20 inch A2 HBAR with standard aperture sights and a flat top 16 inch carbine with a 1 to 4 power scope. With Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets I average 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. And if a miracle happens I get groups smaller than a inch at 100 yards. With uncrimped Sierra 69 gr bullets and Varget I do much better than this for being 65 years old and drinking far too much coffee. On top of this I wear glasses and have chronologically gifted eyesight and the start of cataracts.

Your X-Treme 55gr FMJ bullets are $50.00 per 500 hundred and sold in bulk for blasting ammo and not produced for benchrest competition. I'm jealous of your group sizes, so what type AR15 rifle do you have, what type/make barrel, scope and modifications does your AR15 rifle have.

 

[CatShooter]

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I have two AR 15 rifles, a 20 inch A2 HBAR with standard aperture sights and a flat top 16 inch carbine with a 1 to 4 power scope. With Hornady 55 gr FMJ bullets I average 2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. And if a miracle happens I get groups smaller than a inch at 100 yards. With uncrimped Sierra 69 gr bullets and Varget I do much better than this for being 65 years old and drinking far too much coffee. On top of this I wear glasses and have chronologically gifted eyesight and the start of cataracts.

Your X-Treme 55gr FMJ bullets are $50.00 per 500 hundred and sold in bulk for blasting ammo and not produced for benchrest competition. I'm jealous of your group sizes, so what type AR15 rifle do you have, what type/make barrel, scope and modifications does your AR15 rifle have.

Edwardus Maximus..

You just can't get your ARs to shoot, cuz you have adjusted your crimpy thing the right way - it's as easy as that!!

 

[bigedp51]

Edwardus Maximus..
You just can't get your ARs to shoot, cuz you have adjusted your crimpy thing the right way - it's as easy as that!!

CatShooter, I can understand at my age shooting 2 to 3 inch groups, and "IF" the OP is younger and shooting better groups.

"BUT" what I do not understand is the fans reactions to all my calls when I referee the local games.

P.S. Its far worse than Boyd Allen's reaction here when I say "Enfield Rifle" in this forum.

Besides we all know even if Boyd Allen threw something at me he can't even hit the broad side of a barn.

Bazzinga ;D