.223, Berger 90 VLD's, and H-4350

[amlevin]

Was recently reading an article that was based partly on some work done by German Salazar and a member of a Canadian Shooting group.

He was exploring the capabilities of the 90 gr VLD as a LR bullet.

In his conclusions he determined that (for his test rifle) a load of 26.2 gr VV N550 was optimum, yielding speeds around 2850 or so.

In consulting a burn rate chart I see that VV N550 is the slower of the two at #120 and H-4350 is a little faster at #115 (Hodgdon Burn Rate Chart).

Has anyone else explored H-4350 in the .223 Rem with 90 gr bullets.

The rifle is a 26" bbl, 3-groove, 1:7 twist. Has been throated so the 90 VLD can be seated at the lands while the pressure ring is about .010" or so above the shoulder/neck junction. I can move the bullet from jammed, to a sizable jump without reducing powder volume (any more than the .223 case has already been reduced )

I'm interested in any suggestions or comments on H-4350 AND the 90 VLD.

Just curious as I have 10# of H-4350 and -Zero- VV550. Most other powders I have, or can get easily, are too slow in resulting muzzle velocity.

 

[boltman223]

I'm definitely interested in hearing what kind of results people have gotten with this powdee

 

[amlevin]

You might be able to develop a good load using H4350, but IMO you're going the wrong direction with that powder. Varget is also not a good choice, it simply doesn't have the energy needed to push the 90s at a reasonable velocity with such a limited case volume.

In the test results I was speaking of in my opening, VV N-550 gave great results and according to Lapua, that powder and H-4350 are pretty close in the performance categories. Isn't VV-550 one of their "Extreme" powders?

One thing I've noticed with some test cartridges, with the 90 Berger VLD seated with the pressure ring at the neck/shoulder junction, there's a ton of room for powder. Maybe enough for a slow burner like the h-4350 to actually be "enough coal in the boiler".

Another possibility I'm thinking of is RL-17. Lots of room for powder, a nice heavy MTU Barrel, enough throat to seat the bullet long, yada, yada, yada.

 

[boltman223]

You might be able to develop a good load using H4350, but IMO you're going the wrong direction with that powder. Varget is also not a good choice, it simply doesn't have the energy needed to push the 90s at a reasonable velocity with such a limited case vol

I don't know if you are saying that your statement is always going to be true or not but, I can say I have seen different. There is a forum member that I shoot with and he does not have a problem getting 2850 out of varget with his 223. I just don't want people to be misled when other people have had other experiences.

 

[BoilerUP]

I get 2750fps with 90gr Berger VLDs from a 22" 223 Ackley with short (0.061") freebore using 24.9gr Varget...

 

[MrMajestic]

N550 is a Double Base powder and 4350 is a Single Base. Not even close to the same amount of energy available from the same load. Reloader 17 is a Double Base and it works well in my .20-.223AI with the 55's. What I have found is that N550 is faster burning?/higher energy content? or for lack of a better term "hotter" than Reloader 17 and both have much more energy in the same weight of 4350. I suppose this is why it works well in the .223 w/90's. JMHO

 

[skiutah02]

I'm the guy that boltman was referring to. I'm using Varget with the 90vlds in a normal 223 cartridge but rifle was setup specifically for these and easily getting 2850 without any pressure signs, no sticking bolt, primers are still rounded, no ejector marks. More room for powder in Lapua brass, and did go over 2900 during load development but groups opened up and started to see ejector marks.
Have a set of brass on their 8th firing and while the pp are not as tight as new brass, still enough tightness for a few more loadings. I recycle brass at 10 firings as a personal rule, but might just see how long these will go out of interest. There is an excellent article out of Canada and my results/ observations parallel his. I'll find the link when I get home but if you google mouse gun on steriods you'll find it.

Not discounting your observations with the other powders as that's got me thinking, but adding my own observations with varget. Hope this helps, Drew

 

[XTR]

I believe Laurie shot 90s with N550 to good effect, until it's temperature sensitivity reared it's head.

N550 is temperature sensitive, and if you are running a load that is on the warm side at 75 degrees it will blow primers at 88, at least in a 308... guess how I know. :-[

 

[skiutah02]

That is Robert Pitcairn's excellent article entitled, "A Mouse on Steroids". Really a must read for anyone wanting to try the 90 VLDs in a .223. Unfortunately, the link to that article online seemed to be de-activated not too long ago, and doesn't seem to be working just now. I have a printed copy at home, maybe there is a different route to gain access to it if anyone reading this thread is interested...really a very informative body of work

Happy to hear that Varget is working for you. I also measured velocities with Varget that were over 2850 fps (~2875 fps), but the primers literally almost fell out of the brass after one firing and the groups were not all that good. 8 firings in your brass doesn't like you're having any pressure issues at all. In my setup, the optimal Varget load was only giving ~2815 fps, so clearly there are some differences between our setups and the pressures they generate. I've had a similar experience with a different .223 bolt gun using Varget and the Berger 80.5s. I just could't get the velocity anywhere near where I thought it should be and ended up using H322. So perhaps I'm just a bit biased against Varget for .223 loads because of my previous experience with it. In any event, a good demonstration that what may not work for some may still be worth trying.

Yep, that's the article. I totally agree - a must read.

I've been playing around with the Berger 80 VLDs to see if they can shoot in my rifle too, and have found a good node that is between 2932 and 2965 if that helps orient you to this barrel/rifle. The reason that I don't have a better idea about the true velocity is that for the first time my magnetospeed is affecting groups. Used the MS in initial FF and load development, but when I took it off the "most promising" powder charge was quite horrible for groups and when I backed it down a little the tight group reappeared. After messing around with seating depth, primer, neck tension, etc have not done enough velocity testing to know (yet). Drew

 

[skiutah02]

Yep - the MS can be a problem during the reloading process. I have never tried to have mine attached when shooting groups during load development. Unfortunately, that puts me in the position of having to load and shoot twice as many rounds in order to get both groups and MV data. If they ever come out with this LabRadar thingy and it works, I will be happy as a clam .

I've used the MS to develop 10-12 different loads in 3-4 different rifles and this was the first one to be sensitive to the MS attached/detached for me.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

I tried 4350 in a 223 with 90s. With a full case, not crushed, but to the case shoulder (can't remember # of grains) I couldn't get much past 2550 in a 26" 7.7 twist.

I have also used 2000MR and N550, which are very similar, and get about 2800 with 26grs. The difference between 4350 and 2000MR/N550 is that 4350 is single base, with relatively large kernels. Both 2000MR and N550 are double base and very fine grained. Double base powders have more energy. Smaller kernel size means there is less space between the kernels, thus more powder and less air.

 

[Heavy barrel]

No problems using varget or re15 in my barrel. I won a 1000 yard regional with brass that has 14 firings running around 2830 fps. I do have a really long throat though. My col is 2.755

I've been wanting to try 4350 but haven't got around to it yet.

 

[Scott Harris]

I'm using 24.0gr Varget and getting about 2780fps and 10 reloads on Lapua brass. Accuracy is great and I see no need to push for more velocity...would rather have my brass last longer! 223REM cases really don't have a lot of brass around that primer pocket.

 

[r bose]

Been using R-15 (24.5g) out of a 31" tube getting 2865 with no problems. I also have some 2000MR to try when the time comes.

 

[XTR]

Wade,
Did you ever find a load with the 90s that you were satisfied with? I know you spent a lot of time working with it but don't recall whether you ever settled on anything final.

I put that project down back before Camp Perry. I needed to pick something to shoot for the mid range nationals and my 308s were shooting better. I was ready to throw it all in a pile and have a yard sale after I found that I'd been load testing for a couple of hundred rounds with a loose scope rail.

I've got all the stuff now to have one of my 308s (the R700) made into a switchbarrel (PTG reamer spec'd for 90s, Lilja barrel, PTG bolt)

If I get that shooting I'll have my smith rechamber my Savage with the same reamer and work up load and sell it to someone and clear out a slot in the safe.

 

[Beau]

I tried 4350 in a 223 with 90s. With a full case, not crushed, but to the case shoulder (can't remember # of grains) I couldn't get much past 2550 in a 26" 7.7 twist.

That's right. Burning rate isn't the only factor. Powder density is as great a factor. You could have two powders with identical burn rate, but if you can only cram half as much of one in a case, where are you at?

 

[MLC]

I too played with Re17 and my Ackley just to see what kind of velocity it would generate.
The barrel is a Broughton 5C 1/8 cut at 19.5".
It didn't offer me anything over other powders in my stubby tube but I think in a 26" barrel it would be worth looking into.

223 AI 80 grain Sierra hBN

2.55″ OAL RE17 CCI BR4 Lapua brass

gr. fps.

25 2410
25.3 2431
25.6 2488
25.9 2540
26.2 2562
26.5 2623
26.9 2612
27.2 2668
27.5 2750
27.8 2829
28.2 2832
28.5 2882 primer flattening

I cannot comment on accuracy but thought the velocity data could be useful.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Interesting. I've always believed load density can play a major role for accuracy. Does anyone else ever get a sticky bolt with Varget for 223 Rem?

 

[jsthntn247]

I've been shooting a 223 in f/tr quite a bit here lately. I opted for Norma brass thinking it would have more case capacity than Lapua, it acutally has 1 grain less. I blew a primer in load development at 25.4 grains of Varget and never got good accuracy. I then tried H4350 up to 27 grains. Accuracy was excellent around 2730 fps at 26.1 grains. Once I wear this brass out I'll try some Lapua and see if I can get to the next node with 4350 but you will never get the same velocities out of it that you will with Rl17, PP2000mr, or N550 for the reason's others have mentioned. However, you will be able to shoot it all year long with no pressure spikes and primer pockets will last forever, kinda have to weight your options. The wind drift differences between 2730 and 2850 at 600 yards is only 1.2 inches at a full value 10mph wind = if you shoot a 9, it wasn't the loads fault.

 

[jsthntn247]

What twist rate is everybody running with the 90's. I ran my load through Berger's twist rate calculator and it said I was marginally stable with the 7 twist and my BC was reduced by 6%. That means I could run a 6.5 twist at 2680 (with 0 pressure) and have the same wind deflection as somebody with a 7 twist running 2850 (and on pressures edge). How much of this do you believe is true or hocus pocus?