.223 AR barrel question for Long Range

[Jon Leary]

The White oak 7 in twist 20inch service rifle barrels work great. They are out of stock right now. They moved from Illinois to Nevada recently.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Frank said that 5r rifling when the bullet leaves the barrel its clean, Standard rifling leaves a burr on the bullet every time it leaves the barrel, Going off memory here. He said If I remember correctly that they did some military testing that had the right type of equipt to capture images of the bullet leaving the barrel, And that they noted the burrs on the bullets exiting the barrels of the standard types of rifling an no burrs on 5R barrel projectiles. It makes sense.

 

[padom]

Get a white oak barrel... Under new ownership, I'm not sure if they still have White Oak Precision barrels - these are Bartlein or Krieger. Wylde chamber.

They sure do. Ive been shooting WOA barrels for many many years. I reached out to the new Owners when they bought WOA from John

Super nice and knowledgeable people thst care about putting out the best possible product.

I wanted to test their barrels since they moved WOA to Nevada.

I have a 20" WOP Krieger, 20" WOP Shilen and a 20" WOA SDM fluted Wilson from the new owners.

Barrels absolutely hammer. Buy with confidence.

Also, every barrel the new Owners have sent me, the gas port is between the lands. I dont know anyone else doing this anymore and is just a testament to their attention to detail..

 

[LVLAaron]

^ same. My WOP Krieger hammers. Won me a lot of matches and and a couple plaques.



It consistently shoots 5 shot groups like this.

 

[DR_2297]

Single load of shoot from magazine?

 

[LVLAaron]

SMK 80's or Berger 80.5 single fed.

It will shoot the same with 77 OTMs or Hornady 75 (Hornady 75 is an incredible sleeper bullet. Cheap, and one of the best 22 cal bullets there is)

 

[FrankG]

I have barrels with 5 and 6 groove and they all shoot well. There’s some that say 5 is more inherently accurate due to being more symmetrical but I don’t think most can shoot the difference even if its a thing. @FrankG may have some good feedback on this question, he’s way more of an expert than I am.

Any theoretical edge from 5-groove (less bullet jacket deformation due to odd-numbered lands opposing grooves, plus radiused/shallow land edges in true 5R profiles) is often lost in manufacturing tolerances, lapping quality, twist rate, ammo consistency, and shooter variables.

There might be a slight edge to 5 groove re: cleaning though. The radiused/shallow transitions between lands and grooves reduce sharp corners where carbon or copper fouling can build up, making the barrel easier and quicker to clean.

Up until late 2022 (read further prior to 2022) my view was this. Regardless of the number of lands I don't think there is any real accuracy difference or in barrel life.

Obermeyer always claimed the 5R was better... keep reading....I feel he knew it but didn't necessarily have hard scientific data to back it up.

I always said, "the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the bore of the barrel, the more uniform the twist rate and the more stress free the barrel is... the more forgiving the barrel is going to be." All of these advantages go to a cut rifled barrel.

Some say the 5R rifling cleans easier? I say... eh... whatever. Your perception. The way I clean my barrels I for the most part don't see a difference. Possibly from a carbon fouling standpoint the patch isn't trying to get down into that 90 degree corner on conventional rifling vs 5R but that would be about it.

The "R" in 5R doesn't stand for radius. It stands for Russian. Obermeyer years ago seen a small caliber Russian barrel (think it was a 4 groove) modified it/mimicked the rifling profile and added it to his 5 groove barrels and called it 5R.

I do believe the 5R rifling helps fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in smaller calibers of say 6.5mm and smaller. The non opposing lands don't distort and upset the bullet jacket like a regular 4 groove, 6 groove or a 3 groove with really wide lands.

I don't like the 5R in one application. Short jacket 6mm bullets. Like bullets less than 80gr in the 6mm. Those short jacket 6mm bullet and it's worse with a boattail 6mm don't like the 5R. They will shoot in the .3xx's but you won't get nothing more out of them. Here is where you want a conventional 4 groove or conventional 5 groove or 6 groove but not the "R" style.

Sticking with 6mm and you are shooting 85/90gr and heavier bullets... go 5R all the way.

Now several years prior to 2022 one ammo maker/bullet maker and a gov't test facility testing 6.5mm stuff and both not knowing the other was doing testing also... and both places did testing out to 1k and 1200 yards. What both noticed and didn't know why and they where shooting 4 groove and 5R rifled barrels that we made. What they noticed was the bullets out of the 5R rifling flew better/more consistently at long range but couldn't put a finger on it as to why.

So now we come to the fall of 2022. A test was ran. I didn't know it at the time but we made all of the barrels. I have to for confidentiality reasons leave the caliber and bullets out.

We made 7 barrels with Saami spec. 6 groove rifling.
We made 5 barrels with 5R rifling.

So a nice sample size of barrels. Data wasn't based on two barrels.

All made to the same bore and groove tolerances...just the style and number of grooves were different.

All accuracy testing was done at 200 yards in controlled conditions.

First test took a few days to set up. On a Saturday a total of 160 rounds where fired. All 10 shot groups. Every bullet fired when it left the barrel hi speed photography took a picture of the bullet in flight. Took like 11 hours to fire all the rounds. Three of four different types of bullets where fired.

Wanting to be sure the manufacturer reran the test two weeks later. They wanted to make sure non of the data was skewed and the 2nd test again firing 160 rounds of ammo duplicated the results of the first test.

If I recall correctly the 5R barrels out shot accuracy wise the 6 groove by a .100". I could be wrong but I think that was the number. Now a .100" you could say...whatever and doesn't mean a whole hill of beans as that is not a lot of a difference.

What was interesting when I got to see the pictures of the bullets fired... every bullet fired out of the 6 groove barrels had a burr on the side of the jacket. None of the bullets fired from the 5R rifling had that burr. The question was asked... did this effect the BC of the bullet? They said yes. It was asked... by how much? As much as 5%. I said if you rerun this test ever again... record the accuracy data at like 500 yard. That 5% BC variance will show up more down range.

Now this supported what the other ammo maker and gov't test that was run several years earlier showed but nobody knew why.

The more and more the bullet makers/accuracy testing is done and watched... the same conclusion seems to come up. The bullets fired out of 5R style rifling fly better/has more consistent BC's as it's helping the BC of the bullet.

So Boot's Obermeyer... he knew he was onto something!

As Paul Harvey would say... and now you know the rest of the story.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Edd]

What was interesting when I got to see the pictures of the bullets fired... every bullet fired out of the 6 groove barrels had a burr on the side of the jacket. None of the bullets fired from the 5R rifling had that burr.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

What caused the burr on the side of the jacket?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Last I asked, White Oak used Wilson blanks for their house-brand barrels. Anything Barlein, Krieger, Shilen, etc. is labeled on the listing, with a higher price to match.

I've always just used their in-house and been very happy.

I think the Wilson has proven itself by now.

I remember when I was high-power shooting in the 1990s, the 8 twist was considered the perfect service rifle barrel. Lots of low scores shot with those Wilson White Oaks.

 

[wer0206]

Up until late 2022 (read further prior to 2022) my view was this. Regardless of the number of lands I don't think there is any real accuracy difference or in barrel life.

Obermeyer always claimed the 5R was better... keep reading....I feel he knew it but didn't necessarily have hard scientific data to back it up.

I always said, "the more uniform the bore and groove sizes are over the length of the bore of the barrel, the more uniform the twist rate and the more stress free the barrel is... the more forgiving the barrel is going to be." All of these advantages go to a cut rifled barrel.

Some say the 5R rifling cleans easier? I say... eh... whatever. Your perception. The way I clean my barrels I for the most part don't see a difference. Possibly from a carbon fouling standpoint the patch isn't trying to get down into that 90 degree corner on conventional rifling vs 5R but that would be about it.

The "R" in 5R doesn't stand for radius. It stands for Russian. Obermeyer years ago seen a small caliber Russian barrel (think it was a 4 groove) modified it/mimicked the rifling profile and added it to his 5 groove barrels and called it 5R.

I do believe the 5R rifling helps fight bullet failure. Bullet failure is more of a problem in smaller calibers of say 6.5mm and smaller. The non opposing lands don't distort and upset the bullet jacket like a regular 4 groove, 6 groove or a 3 groove with really wide lands.

I don't like the 5R in one application. Short jacket 6mm bullets. Like bullets less than 80gr in the 6mm. Those short jacket 6mm bullet and it's worse with a boattail 6mm don't like the 5R. They will shoot in the .3xx's but you won't get nothing more out of them. Here is where you want a conventional 4 groove or conventional 5 groove or 6 groove but not the "R" style.

Sticking with 6mm and you are shooting 85/90gr and heavier bullets... go 5R all the way.

Now several years prior to 2022 one ammo maker/bullet maker and a gov't test facility testing 6.5mm stuff and both not knowing the other was doing testing also... and both places did testing out to 1k and 1200 yards. What both noticed and didn't know why and they where shooting 4 groove and 5R rifled barrels that we made. What they noticed was the bullets out of the 5R rifling flew better/more consistently at long range but couldn't put a finger on it as to why.

So now we come to the fall of 2022. A test was ran. I didn't know it at the time but we made all of the barrels. I have to for confidentiality reasons leave the caliber and bullets out.

We made 7 barrels with Saami spec. 6 groove rifling.
We made 5 barrels with 5R rifling.

So a nice sample size of barrels. Data wasn't based on two barrels.

All made to the same bore and groove tolerances...just the style and number of grooves were different.

All accuracy testing was done at 200 yards in controlled conditions.

First test took a few days to set up. On a Saturday a total of 160 rounds where fired. All 10 shot groups. Every bullet fired when it left the barrel hi speed photography took a picture of the bullet in flight. Took like 11 hours to fire all the rounds. Three of four different types of bullets where fired.

Wanting to be sure the manufacturer reran the test two weeks later. They wanted to make sure non of the data was skewed and the 2nd test again firing 160 rounds of ammo duplicated the results of the first test.

If I recall correctly the 5R barrels out shot accuracy wise the 6 groove by a .100". I could be wrong but I think that was the number. Now a .100" you could say...whatever and doesn't mean a whole hill of beans as that is not a lot of a difference.

What was interesting when I got to see the pictures of the bullets fired... every bullet fired out of the 6 groove barrels had a burr on the side of the jacket. None of the bullets fired from the 5R rifling had that burr. The question was asked... did this effect the BC of the bullet? They said yes. It was asked... by how much? As much as 5%. I said if you rerun this test ever again... record the accuracy data at like 500 yard. That 5% BC variance will show up more down range.

Now this supported what the other ammo maker and gov't test that was run several years earlier showed but nobody knew why.

The more and more the bullet makers/accuracy testing is done and watched... the same conclusion seems to come up. The bullets fired out of 5R style rifling fly better/has more consistent BC's as it's helping the BC of the bullet.

So Boot's Obermeyer... he knew he was onto something!

As Paul Harvey would say... and now you know the rest of the story.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Wow, thanks for the knowledge share Frank! Glad I tagged you in this convo.

 

[urbanrifleman]

^ same. My WOP Krieger hammers. Won me a lot of matches and and a couple plaques.

View attachment 1741441

It consistently shoots 5 shot groups like this.

How many service rifle configurations are there now? There used to be two. One pre ban, and one post ban.

 

[jelenko]

How many service rifle configurations are there now? There used to be two. One pre ban, and one post ban.

For the barrel, still the same two.

But, for handguards, buttstock and sights - a LOT. And, of course, the trigger as long as it meets weight.

 

[FrankG]

What caused the burr on the side of the jacket?

The hard edge of the lands on conventional rifling. Pressure and velocity most likely plays a part as well but from data I've seen and have been told... even at normal max working pressures the bullets during accuracy testing out of 5R rifled barrels... that it helps the BC. That's coming from bullet makers relaying that information to me.

One of the ballistic guys at one of the bullet makers (I withhold the name as I didn't ask permission to use his name and or the company name) was a hard core 4 groove barrel guy on his F open class guns. After seeing repeated ballistic test data and how the guns performed at matches out in the real world... everything he puts on his personal guns is with the 5R rifling. That alone tells you something.

 

[FrankG]

I think the Wilson has proven itself by now.

I remember when I was high-power shooting in the 1990s, the 8 twist was considered the perfect service rifle barrel. Lots of low scores shot with those Wilson White Oaks.

White Oak has a bunch of barrels on order with us.

So when you order from White Oak... ask them what they are putting on your upper etc...

 

[urbanrifleman]

For the barrel, still the same two.

But, for handguards, buttstock and sights - a LOT. And, of course, the trigger as long as it meets weight.

So it's still just the 20 inch ? I thought they were allowing all different kinds.

 

[mtncwru]

So it's still just the 20 inch ? I thought they were allowing all different kinds.

20" is still the maximum, but they're allowing shorter now. Not terribly common though, at least not that I've seen.

 

[LVLAaron]

How many service rifle configurations are there now? There used to be two. One pre ban, and one post ban.

Don't know. I built that rifle for AR-Tac (F-Class) The rules have changed since I built it, they allow longer barrels now. 22 inch I believe.

 

[mtncwru]

Don't know. I built that rifle for AR-Tac (F-Class) The rules have changed since I built it, they allow longer barrels now. 22 inch I believe.

Service Rifle is still a 20" max though. You can shoot an AR-Tactical rifle in the Match Rifle class if you replace the bipod with a sling.

 

[Edd]

The hard edge of the lands on conventional rifling.

So there were 6 individual burrs on the jackets?