.223 and crimp

[cmillard]

is anyone out there using a taper crimp on their .223 rem when shooting out of an ar-15. i just saw on sinclair int. the new competition die set and it includes a taper crimp die. my set did not have that and had a body die. as it is now, i do not crimp my cases and run with apx. .003-.005 tension. is there any benefit to having this die?

 

[fdshuster]

Cole: began loading for my M1 Garand almost 30 years ago, never crimped a single round. Beginning in 1995 began loading for my AR-15's, and have loaded and fired thousands of rounds, (burned out 3 barrels), and have never crimped a single round, and never had an alibi in any match that was ammo related. Have never seen a need for it, and since I'm using match bullets (69 gr. Sierra #1380 being the majority), that do not have a crimping cannalure, it would not be possible anyway. The only ammo that I crimp is for my Marlin lever-action mdl 1894 Silhouette rifle.

 

[kkeene]

Black Hill's crimps their 50 gr V-max re-manufactured 223 ammo. Looks like what a Lee crimp die does, not a taper crimp. Those bullets don't have a cannalure. Very accurate ammo.

 

[distinguished]

Why buy match bullets and then change the profile of the bullet by crimping? I went distinguished and made highmaster and never crimped my ammo in any of my rifles. Garand, M1A, AR15.

 

[fdshuster]

Keith: From the "Precision Shooting Reloading Guide", page 134: "Needless to say, DO NOT CRIMP your ammunition. It's not necessary with any dies which produce normal case neck tension, and causes a whole lot more problems than it solves". note: the upper case letters are used in the publication/ I did not add them. And yes, Black Hills does crimp some of their loads, as does Winchester, Remington, etc., all for the purpose of creating "one-size-fits-all" ammunition. As to accuracy, some think a 2" group at 100 yds. is "accurate", while others of us are looking for 1/4 moa. When I see my fellow benchrest competitors crimping their match ammo, then I'll re-think the issue. If the interest is blowing up tin cans at 50 yd., then have at it.

 

[cmillard]

thanks for the replies--i was just curious about the crimp die and if anyone really crimps. i know that the military crimps their ammo, but then again they operate under different conditions than we do.

 

[fdshuster]

Cole: I would agree crimping is required for military ammo, all of which is subject to full-auto use, and also the reason the primer pockets are crimped. I'd be curious to know if the Marksmanship Training Unit, at Ft. Benning crimps their handloaded match ammunition for their competition teams. I do know they are using at least some of the Sierra MatchKing line of bullets that do not have a crimping cannalure, so how could a crimp be applied without destroying the accuracy that Sierra (and other manufacturers) worked so hard to perfect. Just reviewed my 2009 Sierra bullet catalog, the fold out sheet, and counted a total of 140 different bullet offerings, and 12 are offered with a crimping cannalure. And, most of those are the round & flat nose intended for lever-actions. Even their GameKing line of hunting bullets have no crimp groove, including the heavy recoiling .338 calibers.

 

[kkeene]

Black Hills is the most accurate 50 gr 223 varmint ammo that I have found in several guns. This is compared to several premium flavors of new Federal and Hornady ammo that do not have a crimp. Are you saying that Black Hills ammo in less accurate than several other flavors of non-crimped premium ammo? Not in my experience and I have a lot of 1/4 100 yard inch groups to prove it.

PS - The Black Hills ammo has low SD's for velocity measurements as well.

 

[fdshuster]

Keith: As I said, there is accuracy, and then there is accuracy. 3 or 5 shot groups at 100 yards? What kind of groups are we talking about at 2, and 300 yards? If a crimp was essential, for any reason, then I'm sure Sierra would include a crimp groove on their entire line of GameKing bullets, but they do not! As posted by"distinguished", you cannot take a precision made match quality bullet and smash and distort its' carefully crafted jacket and expect any true, consistant accuracy, and I'm talking sub m.o.a. groups at any and all distances. I'll trust the writers from "Precision Shooting" ( who authored the Reloading Guide that I quoted from), and those who are winning the big time match competitions, like Tony Boyer, and follow their well qualified advice. And finally, from the Lyman Reloading Manual #49, page 31, the following quotes: "Because crimping has a somewhat detrimental effect on accuracy, crimping should be limited to ammo intended for one or more of the just mentioned applications. Keep in mind that your bullets must have a cannalure ( a groove around the bullet) in order to crimp".

 

[kkeene]

Frank,

My bone stock 223 Savage Model 12 (except I put it in a factory Savage VLP stock) will usually average 5 shot 1/2 MOA groups (on a calm day) with the Black Hill 50 gr V-max out to 200 yards, which is the longest distance that I can shoot on paper at my club. Some of these groups are a little bigger but several are 1/4 MOA. Needless to say that I am quite happy that I have a factory gun that shoots this well with factory ammo and I don't give a hoot if the bullet is crimped.

My 1:12 twist Rock River AR-15 is about a 3/4 MOA gun using the same ammo, but I have not found anything that it likes better.

All I am saying is that Black Hill's puts a hell of a crimp on this V-max bullet and it still shoot exceptionally well and better than can be expected out of a production rifle.

 

[30378]

I crimp nothing but 30-30 and magnum pistol loads. Been shooting ARs since Moby Dick was a minnow and never crimped the first one.

 

[cliffy]

I CRIMP every .223 Remington case with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Regardless of bullet brand, I believe a crimp allows a powder charge to build alittle steam before it releases a bullet. At 200 yards, accuracy is good (2" or less groups with ten rounds fired). Not crimping can cause excessive bullet run-out, bullet set-back in ARs, and varied velocity even with carefully-weighed handloads. This is my belief, but I've been wrong once before. I may be shaky, but my groups stay tight. Reducing locktime with a decent firing pin spring helps accuracy also. Cliffy

 

[Ackman]

I've never put a crimp on any .223, either bolt action or AR15. There's no need. An AR doesn't have enough recoil to even worry about "bullet set back", and not crimping won't cause excessive bullet runout. The things some people believe. But to find out what works for you, do a test. You have the crimp die.....so do a load workup and compare loads with a button die and .003" neck tension against crimped and see what happens. Use a comp seating die.

 

[fdshuster]

And I'll say it again, for the last time: Those of us who are interested in extreme accuracy are using match grade bullets (Sierra, Berger, etc.) and these bullets do not have a crimping cannalure. To apply any type of a crimp to that carefully crafted J-4 bullet jacket is guaranteed to destroy any accuracy potential that the manufacture worked so hard to put into it. Don't take my word for it. Put the question to Walt Berger, and the very knowledgable folks at Sierra Bullets, and all the other precision bullet makers. If you're loading the cheap ( .04 cents each) military FMJ, with the crimp groove, and open base with the exposed lead, have at it. Just competed in a NRA Hi Power Match, using one of my AR-15's this past weekend, fired the course, slow fire off-hand, rapid sitting & prone, and prone slow fire, all with the Sierra #1380 MatchKings: As always, with uncrimped ammo, and no ammo related alibi's. Works fine for me, as it has since 1995, why change?

 

[223284guy]

Frank,

how do you size your brass to get the tension needed to hold the bullet tightly? ? I usually full lenght size and find when seating my bullets that they could be tighter as they can usually be moved down in the case with slight finger downward pressure when tested?? I am using redding standard dies.


Thanks, for helping me to understand how to get proper neck tension to hold the bullets securily.

 

[fdshuster]

223284guy: For my AR's I'm using a standard Redding FL sizer die, and yes, even using the factory inside neck expander, but with the floating carbide button, and used with Imperial die sizing wax. With that get very minimal runouts using LC brass. Neck tension is .003" and the bullets have never moved even when pushing the nose against a hard rubber surface. Bolt guns chambered in the 223 get ammo made with Lapua brass, using the Redding Type S neck bushing die, the bushing being .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Loaded round is .250", and using the .248" bushing. Additional note: Just re-read your post, and you did not say what brand of brass you are using? Recently tried to load some short range 308 and had some Remington brass included with Winchester and LC. I could feel the Win. & LC all seating with the same amount of pressure, but the Remington's were varying a lot, and several had the bullet so lose I could pull them out of the case with my fingers. Measured neck wall thickness (what I should have done before attempting to use them), and the thickness were all over the place. Saved all the $$$$ components, and the brand "R" brass went into the scrap can. Only Lapua is used for the long range loadings.

 

[223284guy]

Frank,


Thanks for the reply, alot of my 223 Rem reloading has been with Rem Brass. I will get some Win brass and give it another try. I really apperciate your sharing of information. I have been using the Lee Factory crimp die to correct the looseness and not getting to bad of groups, but iam always looking for the best small groups that i can reload...

My reloading is for a factory bolt gun.

Thanks again,
Steve B.

 

[cliffy]

Cannelure is a groove cut into a bullet designed for crimping the bullet. Lee Factory Crimp Dies are designed to crimp any bullet regardless of cannelure featured or not. A crimped bullet holds steady within loaded cartridge, no fore or aft movement within a magazine. A bullet featuring no provided cannelure does not mean it cannot be properly crimped. Some few bullet manufacturers claim crimping causes lesser accuracy, but after firing thousands of bullets crimped and otherwise I'm of the opinion that my most accurate loads are all Lee Factory Crimped. Of course, opinion is objective, but downrange performance begins to be difficult to dispute. Cliffy

 

[FroggyOne2]

If you control your neck tension, then there is no reason to crimp..

 

[cliffy]

I find a 55 grain bullet in 5.56mm or .223 Remington houses suficient power to move a bullet BACK into its case if not crimped. Crimping offers three important advantages: steadying the bullet in its case, increasing slightly the release pressure, and centering the bullet within its case. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is not a tool to be conjoled with regarding ultimate accuracy. I consider this reloading/handloading step important. Apparently, many posters do NOT. Try it both ways, and see where one's bullets fly. Cliffy