.223 90 Gr for 1000 yard

[kschilling]

I need some advise. I'm currently shooting 90 gr Bergers for Mid Range F Class(T/R) and I'm have awesome luck with the load I'm using. My only reservations...... Are the 90 Bergers out of a .223 competitive at 1000? I understand alot is based on conditions, I just don't want to spend too much time on them if their not capable of the task. I have a .308 but I haven't done any other load development except for 175 Noslers. Focus is on the Nationals in Sept 2012.

Thanks folks.....

Ken

 

[Laurie]

Have look at the Daily Bulletin for July 11th 2011 on the 900 / 1,000 / 1,100yd USA v Scotland F/TR team match. The .223 custom Savage with 90gn Berger VLDs at around 2,900 fps was also tried on Blair Atholl's 1,200yd range (actually 1,233yd) on the preceding Friday practice session and kept 10 shots within the 1,000yd modified F Class international Palma target 'inner' (four) ring, something around a 1.75-MOA group and 9 of the 10 with near perfect elevation, one dropping maybe three-quarters of a minute.

 

[TonyR]

Have look at the Daily Bulletin for July 11th 2011 on the 900 / 1,000 / 1,100yd USA v Scotland F/TR team match. The .223 custom Savage with 90gn Berger VLDs at around 2,900 fps was also tried on Blair Atholl's 1,200yd range (actually 1,233yd) on the preceding Friday practice session and kept 10 shots within the 1,000yd modified F Class international Palma target 'inner' (four) ring, something around a 1.75-MOA group and 9 of the 10 with near perfect elevation, one dropping maybe three-quarters of a minute.

It was something to see especially when compared to some of the best 308 Wins in the world that were shooting at the same time.

 

[jscandale]

For 1000 yards out of a service rifle, they are the absolute best choice. The same cannot be said for 600. I won the Porter Cup in 2002 with JLK 90s and have been in multiple shoot offs in the Porter and Farr trophy matches with that combination. Chris Hatcher of the Army team also shot the first 200 With a service rifle at 1000 earlier that year at interservice. To my knowledge, Chris and I paved the way for the 90 gr bullet that year as no one has ever won 1000 matches with 90 gr bullets prior to that year. The stay supersonic at 1000 yds and are very accurate.

JS

 

[NateG]

When they shoot well, yes. But they're hard to get to shoot well consistently. I had a .223 bolt gun that I shot the 90VLDs in. It worked pretty well at home out to 1000, but when I got to Perry for LR nationals, the load just wouldn't hold the 9 ring. (Or even the black, for that matter)

I gave up the 90s for LR and switched over to a .308 for palma. But, the upside's there, if you're willing to tinker a whole bunch. Laurie Holland has written a bunch about his experience shooting 90s in a .223, and if you want to try that route at 1000, you'd be well served to read his stuff. (Short version: it can work very well, but takes some work)

 

[jscandale]

Nate is 100% correct. The 90s are temperamental and require a lot of TLC.

JS

 

[Beau]

What barrel, jscandale?

 

[jscandale]

What barrel, jscandale?

The bbl was a 6.5" twist PacNor.

JS

 

[FroggyOne2]

Right now I am running a 7.2 twist Rock Creek bbl, Berger 90gr VLD, Lapua brass, Wilf primer and 25.0 grains of RL15. It is working very consistantly right now and I am veery pleased with it. The rifle has a +arnard action.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Echoing what others have said. I have had excellent results at 1000 yds with the Berger 90VLD. It takes tinkering, careful loading, the right twist (somewhere between 6.5 and 7.5, and patience.

My 30" palma tube gets the 90s going at 2900, with good accuracy, and vertical hold.

You don't say which Berger 90 you are using. The 90HPBT is a much more forgiving bullet than the 90VLD. The 90HPBT is easy to get to shoot well. The 90VLD could be one of the most difficult bullets out there.

Your results may vary.

Matt

 

[flatlander]

I had one PacNor 6.5tw 3-groove AR SR bbl. by John Holliger in 2002 that was a hummer with JLK90VLDs. Started off using 25.2 of N540, which gave a little over 2700fps & pretty good groups, but bump the charge .1gr, and everything went to pot in a hurry.

Then I tried N550 with the 90s, and found wonderful accuracy at just over 2800fps - still out of that same 20" PacNor. I shot that load from 500yds. to 1000, and had great confidence in it up until late in '04, when a friend brought back a large number of JLK90s he'd picked up from Jimmy while at Camp Perry. That lot of bullets didn't come close to shooting as well as the previous lots had, and I sadly gave up on the 90s & the AR SR at about the same time - vision issues were making it just about impossible to shoot decent scores in any but the very best light conditions.

Fast forward to 2011 --- after reading all of Jerry Tierney's posts on trying to get the Berger 90VLDs to perform well enough to be competitive at 1000, I tried some of my old left-over ammo in a 26" 4-groove PacNor 1:7.5tw bbl. I'd chambered & fitted to a M70 Stealth. Much to my surprise, it shot them good enough to hold the MR-1's X-ring at 600, even those from that 'stinker' lot purchased at Perry. Hmmm - and we'd always been told it took nothing slower than a 6.5tw to stabilize them - and aside from that 1st PacNor 6.5tw bbl., I hadn't had much luck with any of the following 6.5s.

Now I'm playing with a 30" Bartlein 5R 7.2tw med. Palma bbl. on my Eliseo R5, and not having to work all that hard to get 1/2 MOA groups at 600, with both Berger & JLK 90VLDs. Once in awhile I'll get a zinger when shooting the 'Perry' JLKs, but the slower twist rate & perhaps the lack of sharp corners in the land profile of the 5R rifling seems to be compatible with the 90 VLDs. I gotta get back to 1000yds with this bbl. again and see what sort of vertical I get before beating the drum any more for 90s in the 223, but I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. OTOH, if the supply of N550 dries up again - or gets much more expensive than it already is - I'm probably not going to go looking very hard for another powder that'll do for me what N550 does in this application. I'll just go back to the 308 Palma rifle, and enjoy the improvements the Sierra #2156 & Berger's 155.5 & 155 Hybrid have brought to the table.

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Dennis:

quote: "I'm probably not going to go looking very hard for another powder that'll do for me what N550 does in this application."

FWIW: 2000MR is an excellent substitute for N550.


Matt

 

[FroggyOne2]

Matt,

I still have not yet been able to get that pound ordered, my buddy said he would get it and has not yet done so! RL15 is working real good right now! Did really well in the Regional I shot a week ago. As it stands right now, I am taking this gun to Perry, I have shooting the .223's that I have so much, that I am to the point that I don't like the recoil of the .308 any more! I am thinking of making the .308 something else like a 6XC or maybe the 6SLR, just not sure on that piont, but will keep the other rwo rifles as a .223. Going to keep the same twist barrel though, Rock Creek 7.2 twist 30 inches long.

 

[flatlander]

Matt,
I've shot some of the PP2000MR in the Bartlein, but so far, haven't been getting the accuracy nor velocity that N550 gives. I'd sure like to find another powder that'll match N550, and will likely experiment further with PP2000, along with H100V, which I've yet to use in a 223 case. A couple of the latest burning rate charts show H100V right next to N550, but it's far bulkier than 550's small kernals. Just dinking around with it a bit the other evening, it looks like the max charge that'll fit would be 25grs or less. You can get 27grs of N550 into a properly throated 223 before a 90 will start to compress the charge.

 

[FroggyOne2]

I believe it was either N550 or N150 that Jim Murphy was using in the 223 that he was shooting.

 

[flatlander]

From a few experiments I've run with N150 in 223 heavy bullet loads, it appears to get pretty spooky at the upper end of things. Just a small bump in charge weight gave scary pressure signs. Not exactly what I expected, since I've used N150 for years in several 6 Dashers, and have had excellent results with it in that application. IMHO, it's going to be very hard to beat N550 for running 90s in the 223 - though I'd love to see something in a ball powder out of the St. Marks plant that'd work.

 

[wfv56]

Just to give froggy's comments a little weight. He won a long range regional at Oak Ridge with his 223. This was shooting against the any/any rifles. He shot with irons in all matches. Pretty heavy hitting. Bill Vaughan

 

[flatlander]

Congrats on some fine shooting Randy - the competition's usually pretty tough at Oak Ridge.

On using RL15 with the 90s - do you see quite a bit of lot-to-lot variation with this powder? That's one thing that put me off about it years ago when I was still shooting AR15 SRs across the course. Be that as it may, I'm still not finding anything better for use with 95-105gr bullets in a 6 RAT AR.

 

[FroggyOne2]

At the moment, I am using pull down, but the lot I have and the 5 lbs commercial variant, I have not been able to notice any difference in them when I was using it for the 308. I can get my hands on some more of the pull down, I believe I may buy about 45 lbs of the stuff this fall, so I will have plenty in the same lot. At 9 bucks a pound at that amount, it is going to be hard to pass it up!

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Dennis:

N550 is certainly a great powder. It's ideal in so many ways for heavy bullets in 223. The speed is just right, it is very dense (so important in a small case), has high energy, and is very consistent. The only downside is price and availability, and you have indicated. 2000MR appears to be very close to N550, so one would think it would be a good substitute. I guess that's not always the case.

If this stuff was easy, it wouldn't be interesting.

Matt