223 85, 88 and 90 Grain

[jlorenzo]

If you intend to run 90 VLDs at 2900 fps in virgin brass, you might want to become accustomed to ruining a certain amount of brass on the first firing. No matter how you do load the work up, it's likely to happen.

If I were going to attempt this, I would suggest fire-forming the brass first using a very mild load, maybe 2600-2700 fps or a little under 50K psi. In my hands, virgin Lapua grows at the shoulder by as much as .006" to .008" on the first firing. In other words, it's several thousandths shorter than it needs to be straight out of the box. If you try to run full-pressure loads in virgin Lapua brass, even if carefully working up to full pressure, you will likely experience a certain number of blown primers during the process. I believe that the extra clearance in virgin brass at the case head is what allows this to happen. Regardless, once a primer is blown in virgin brass, the primer pocket of that piece of brass is usually toast. Other brands of brass may differ in their response to full pressure loads on the first firing. For example, Starline and Lake City are known to be very tough/hard in the case head region straight out of the box, and may fare better at high pressure on the first firing. Nonetheless, running high pressure loads with heavies in .223 Rem is not for the faint of heart, or perhaps a better way of saying that would be that it is not for the faint of wallet.

After several years of burning through Lapua .223 Rem brass at a fairly phenomenal rate, I decided to start using a reduced fire-forming load on the first firing. For this purpose, I do not want to run 90s at over 2750 fps max from a 30" barrel with H4895, usually a bit less as mentioned above. The whole idea is to expand the case to better fit the chamber (i.e. move the shoulder forward), and to begin the process of work-hardening the case head region. Such a reduced/fire-forming load can work quite well for practice and club matches, and it seems to help prevent losing cases on the first full pressure firing, as well as generally prolonging brass life.

I have also experienced loads in virgin Lapua that nearly pierced primers, 24.0 gr of Varget with a 75gr BTHP. Something else may have also been an issue as these were loaded quite a bit longer than 2.26". Should of had no issues.

 

[calgarycanada]

I have been running 90vld at 2770 fps for couple of years now and brass seems to keep up without issues.
My plan is to use a light load with cheap bullets to fireform and work harden the brass this time. I might even try pistol powder and 55 fmj for first firing.
And then tune 88s around 2770 again. I see no practical benefit from running them any faster as this is midrange (300-600) gun.

 

[Jdne5b]

I have been running 90vld at 2770 fps for couple of years now and brass seems to keep up without issues.
My plan is to use a light load with cheap bullets to fireform and work harden the brass this time. I might even try pistol powder and 55 fmj for first firing.
And then tune 88s around 2770 again. I see no practical benefit from running them any faster as this is midrange (300-600) gun.

About the same speed and I'm on 9th firing of Starline 5.56 brass.

 

[urbanrifleman]

About the same speed and I'm on 9th firing of Starline 5.56 brass.
View attachment 1407058

Very, very nice bro.

NIIIIIICCCCCCCCEEEEEE!!!

Is the 90 vld or the 88 ELDM?

 

[Jdne5b]

Very, very nice bro.

NIIIIIICCCCCCCCEEEEEE!!!

Is the 90 vld or the 88 ELDM?

90vld. 88 won't shoot quite thiiis good.

 

[urbanrifleman]

90vld. 88 won't shoot quite thiiis good.

Noted!!!

How good is 88?

 

[Jdne5b]

I've shot a few cleans with the 88s but only shot them when I couldn't find 95smk for a while.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I've shot a few cleans with the 88s but only shot them when I couldn't find 95smk for a while.

What was your seating depth to the lands? For the 88? And for the 90vld?

 

[Jdne5b]

88s I shot 10jam, I'd have to double check the vld probably about the same.

 

[Hohn]

About the same speed and I'm on 9th firing of Starline 5.56 brass.
View attachment 1407058

All the more impressive given the really small case capacity of Starline 223. It’s beefy stuff.

 

[Jdne5b]

All the more impressive given the really small case capacity of Starline 223. It’s beefy stuff.

I’m really liking it. It’s a mild load, throated properly… but the brass has certainly exceeded my expectations. This combo has several clean targets including that 18x, a 17x, and a 14x.

 

[boltfluter]

About the same speed and I'm on 9th firing of Starline 5.56 brass.
View attachment 1407058

Great shooting! Gonna be hard to improve on that. Very cool!
Paul

 

[Barossa_222]

I am in the process of getting a 223 built for FTR. I have a 1:7 30" Bartlein HV. This might prove marginal for the 88s. It's my first foray into the 223. Have been shooting FTR with a 308 at a high level for some years.

I have some 88s and some Berger 85.5s. Throating the gun to suit the 88s as I have found the hybrids quite insensitive to seating depth in other calibers that I run. From reading this forum and others I have gleaned that those trying to run them at high nodes are having issues with case life and possible jacket failure, but it seems 2775ish for speed is a reasonable expectation for accuracy and case life.

Interested to hear insights from those running these bullets and others in FTR using Hodgdon powder. Thinking about starting with Varget, but I also have Benchmark and H4895; along with some IMR 8208XBR.

 

[CADDIE5]

My load is 25.2gr SW Precision LC new brass CCI450 primers 85.5hybrid @ 2.535"oal, 0.176fb, 30" brux 7 twist. Will clean 600yd f class target; 2800FPS +/-muzzle, 2319fps @ 300yd

 

[Ned Ludd]

I am in the process of getting a 223 built for FTR. I have a 1:7 30" Bartlein HV. This might prove marginal for the 88s. It's my first foray into the 223. Have been shooting FTR with a 308 at a high level for some years.

I have some 88s and some Berger 85.5s. Throating the gun to suit the 88s as I have found the hybrids quite insensitive to seating depth in other calibers that I run. From reading this forum and others I have gleaned that those trying to run them at high nodes are having issues with case life and possible jacket failure, but it seems 2775ish for speed is a reasonable expectation for accuracy and case life.

Interested to hear insights from those running these bullets and others in FTR using Hodgdon powder. Thinking about starting with Varget, but I also have Benchmark and H4895; along with some IMR 8208XBR.

A 30" 7-twist should be fine for the 88s. You may give up a very small amount of the intrinsic BC, but they will not suffer from any gyroscopic instability. I have run 90 VLDs over all 4 powders you listed. All would be reasonable choices, differing slightly in a few areas such as the expected velocities they would generate in tuned loads and temperature sensitivity. Of the four, my order of preference would be 1) H4895, 2) Varget, 3) IMR8208XBR, 4) Benchmark.

There are certainly a number of powders from other manufacturers that can be used successfully in .223 Rem with heavies. For example, Vihtavuori N140 is one that some F-TR shooters favor. However, I suspect you'll find more shooters using H4895, which is my personal favorite for this application, and Varget than all the other powders combined. Because you already have both, that's where I would start. As noted by @Jdne5b above, look somewhere in the 2750-2800 fps velocity range from a 30" barrel. Loads in that velocity range can be deadly precise without giving up much at all in terms of wind deflection, and they will be much easier on brass life.

 

[Barossa_222]

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately we do not have access to other brands of powder. Reloader and Vit are unobtainable here in Aus. I will take your advice and start with H4895. Will soft fire the brass before any serious testing as recommended above and see how we go. I'm not particularly fussed with speed, more so accuracy and repeatability/functionality.

This is going to be mostly a club gun out to 600 yards and something that kids can jump behind should they want to give FTR a go. Most of the problems we have over here introducing young people to FTR is that the majority of us are running 308s with fairly stout loads using heavy bullets, so it's tricky handing one over to someone who has had limited experience with a 22 or dads 223 hunting gun.

 

[CharlieNC]

On the 85.5, about half the shooters love them while the other half don't.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately we do not have access to other brands of powder. Reloader and Vit are unobtainable here in Aus. I will take your advice and start with H4895. Will soft fire the brass before any serious testing as recommended above and see how we go. I'm not particularly fussed with speed, more so accuracy and repeatability/functionality.

This is going to be mostly a club gun out to 600 yards and something that kids can jump behind should they want to give FTR a go. Most of the problems we have over here introducing young people to FTR is that the majority of us are running 308s with fairly stout loads using heavy bullets, so it's tricky handing one over to someone who has had limited experience with a 22 or dads 223 hunting gun.

Outstanding precision, a relative lack of recoil, and giving up very little in terms of wind deflection to .308s with heavies out to 600 yd can make the .223 a very potent setup in MR F-Class matches. The only downside is that you might not want to let the kids use it once you've seen what it can do LOL. Once you find a suitable charge weight of H4895, i.e. something that gets you in the 2750-2800 fps range from a 30" barrel, the real key to getting the most out of a .223 with heavies in my hands is seating depth. Test until you find the sweet spot.