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223 85, 88 and 90 Grain

You gain a little. Probably 12 FPS or so per inch between 28 and 30, and a tad more from 26 to 28.

As with any F class load, with the 90vlds the trick is finding the spot where they shoot tight and load there and don’t chase it higher. Faster is Not the path to happiness.
 
The throat geometry is a little different, but it is the equivalent to .195 freebore in a chamber with a 45 degree transition.

With the 85.5 jumping about .030, your COL should be 2.60
Thanks Ray! My C.O.A.L. is 2.615 with the 88 ELDM which gives me a .010 jump. I did a jump test a couple weeks ago with a .015 jam, .010, .020, .030, .040 jumps. All 5 10 shot groups were about the same but I detected a little bit of heavier bolt lift as the jump increased. Probably due to more compression on the powder?
 
Thanks Ray! My C.O.A.L. is 2.615 with the 88 ELDM which gives me a .010 jump. I did a jump test a couple weeks ago with a .015 jam, .010, .020, .030, .040 jumps. All 5 10 shot groups were about the same but I detected a little bit of heavier bolt lift as the jump increased. Probably due to more compression on the powder?

For mine.

2.685" is at 20 jam. 2.665". Yours is 2.625". We are only 40 thou apart.
 
Thanks Ray! My C.O.A.L. is 2.615 with the 88 ELDM which gives me a .010 jump. I did a jump test a couple weeks ago with a .015 jam, .010, .020, .030, .040 jumps. All 5 10 shot groups were about the same but I detected a little bit of heavier bolt lift as the jump increased. Probably due to more compression on the powder?

I think you are right about the compression. I have noticed the same thing.
 
T15 Chamber “touch OAL” with right at 250 down it. This is a single measurement from whatever bullet was in my setup case so rounded to nearest hundredth of an inch. I use ogive to base with Sinclair comparators for setting depth (arbitrary to my tools).

80.5 - OAL: 2.55” Ogive: 1.960”
85.5 - OAL: 2.63” Ogive: 1.960”
90 VLD - OAL: 2.68” Ogive: 1.955”

Let me say that touch was obtained by the method where the bullet is set back a couple thou at a time ppl until primary extraction click ceases.
 
Initially tried Varget out of a 26" barrel with the 88s, velocity didn't make sense to shoot them over the 80s or 75s for that matter. Moved to Leverevolution. Saw 3000 fps in 85F weather, same load (26.0gr) in 35F weather was right around 2900 so it is temp sensitive. Going to play with seating depth. Started with 2.540", about as long as the MDT AICs mag will allow. CCI 41 primers, LC brass. I think I have the .169 freebore but not sure.

At this point my interest in them is only for splash on targets past 600y or so. Hopefully will have more of an impact. I noticed more noise from the steel at 700m than with 75s. Accuracy is nothing to write home about. .8s without playing with powder charge or seating depth yet. It'll do for range steel and some informal PRS matches. Still the 75s at 3000+ are hard to beat. Inside 7-800y I don't think I need anything more than the 75 or 80gr ELD. Whichever shoots best.

I wish there was a cartridge as available as 223 with a little more case capacity. Been getting 88s @25c a piece which isn't bad these days.
 

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My load for the 85.5 Berger in Lapua 223 brass, br4 is 24.2 varget. My coal is 2.560. This results in a MV of 2754. This load shots tighter groups than i can get out of the 90 Atip. I have taken this out to 1000 on steel with good results. My main objective is midrange f-class.

My gun is a Remington 700 with Criterion 26 heavy palma barrel 1:7 twist

My issue with the heavies is finding a node that isn’t over pressure. Then when I come back to a lower node the velocity is not as good as i want to be competitive. The 85.5 seems to have it down. It has the highest node for me of the 85.5, 88 and 90 Atip. I was hoping the 90 Atip would have been better because i shoot the 6mm 110 Atip in my 6x47L in f-class with just as good of results as the 115DTACs gives me at 1000 yards.

My conclusion is to go to 22BR. Won’t be a barrel burner and i am sure i can get at least 3000 out of it. The barrel is in the safe waiting for this 6x47L barrel to wear out.

David
 
How much N135 are you using? I’m gonna try N135 with 88s.
Your load may vary!
In my 223’s …..
Firing pin must be bushed tight!
.2 grain will move my load from usable to “ruins the brass on the first firing”.
A new barrel takes less powder than one with 3900 rounds.
2870 fps is safe in anything I have.
23.5 gr.-N135 will get that velocity with my chamber in a new barrel.
To answer the question directly,
I use more than 23.5 gr.
Bob
 
Your load may vary!
In my 223’s …..
Firing pin must be bushed tight!
.2 grain will move my load from usable to “ruins the brass on the first firing”.
A new barrel takes less powder than one with 3900 rounds.
2870 fps is safe in anything I have.
23.5 gr.-N135 will get that velocity with my chamber in a new barrel.
To answer the question directly,
I use more than 23.5 gr.
Bob
I just needed a starting point so I don’t waste too many components to get there or ruin expensive brass on first firing.
 
I just needed a starting point so I don’t waste too many components to get there or ruin expensive brass on first firing.
If you intend to run 90 VLDs at 2900 fps in virgin brass, you might want to become accustomed to ruining a certain amount of brass on the first firing. No matter how you do load the work up, it's likely to happen.

If I were going to attempt this, I would suggest fire-forming the brass first using a very mild load, maybe 2600-2700 fps or a little under 50K psi. In my hands, virgin Lapua grows at the shoulder by as much as .006" to .008" on the first firing. In other words, it's several thousandths shorter than it needs to be straight out of the box. If you try to run full-pressure loads in virgin Lapua brass, even if carefully working up to full pressure, you will likely experience a certain number of blown primers during the process. I believe that the extra clearance in virgin brass at the case head is what allows this to happen. Regardless, once a primer is blown in virgin brass, the primer pocket of that piece of brass is usually toast. Other brands of brass may differ in their response to full pressure loads on the first firing. For example, Starline and Lake City are known to be very tough/hard in the case head region straight out of the box, and may fare better at high pressure on the first firing. Nonetheless, running high pressure loads with heavies in .223 Rem is not for the faint of heart, or perhaps a better way of saying that would be that it is not for the faint of wallet.

After several years of burning through Lapua .223 Rem brass at a fairly phenomenal rate, I decided to start using a reduced fire-forming load on the first firing. For this purpose, I do not want to run 90s at over 2750 fps max from a 30" barrel with H4895, usually a bit less as mentioned above. The whole idea is to expand the case to better fit the chamber (i.e. move the shoulder forward), and to begin the process of work-hardening the case head region. Such a reduced/fire-forming load can work quite well for practice and club matches, and it seems to help prevent losing cases on the first full pressure firing, as well as generally prolonging brass life.
 
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Initially tried Varget out of a 26" barrel with the 88s, velocity didn't make sense to shoot them over the 80s or 75s for that matter. Moved to Leverevolution. Saw 3000 fps in 85F weather, same load (26.0gr) in 35F weather was right around 2900 so it is temp sensitive. Going to play with seating depth. Started with 2.540", about as long as the MDT AICs mag will allow. CCI 41 primers, LC brass. I think I have the .169 freebore but not sure.

At this point my interest in them is only for splash on targets past 600y or so. Hopefully will have more of an impact. I noticed more noise from the steel at 700m than with 75s. Accuracy is nothing to write home about. .8s without playing with powder charge or seating depth yet. It'll do for range steel and some informal PRS matches. Still the 75s at 3000+ are hard to beat. Inside 7-800y I don't think I need anything more than the 75 or 80gr ELD. Whichever shoots best.

I wish there was a cartridge as available as 223 with a little more case capacity. Been getting 88s @25c a piece which isn't bad these days.

223 Ackley.
 
How much N135 are you using? I’m gonna try N135 with 88s.
A few of us in Indiana are using N135 and the 88's for LR. Likely piggy-backing from what Mr. Gill bestowed on us on his yearly trip over east. I don't have the super long throat that a dedicated 88 or 90 gr rifle should have, it's more like a .120" freebore, so I can't run the super high charges that they're seeing.

I'm seeing great results with LC brass at 23.8 gr of N135. It's ruining approximately 30-50% of my once-fired LC brass on the first firing. Stepping down to 23.6 gr helps a LOT... like Bob said, small changes in charge weight make big differences. Another shooter with more rounds on his barrel uses 24.1 with great results. ALL of this is WAY over book max, so step up carefully.

I'm not sure what my muzzle velocity is, but at 80 deg or so ambient at Indiana elevations, I'm seeing 1410-1420 fps impact velocity at 1000 yards. Stupid low SD's, great elevation on target (<1 moa) when I can settle in and hold it still.

I'll have to take Mr. Ludd's advice on a milder first firing to help with trashing as much brass in the future. I had been blaming over-swaged LC brass, but there might be more to it.
 
A few of us in Indiana are using N135 and the 88's for LR. Likely piggy-backing from what Mr. Gill bestowed on us on his yearly trip over east. I don't have the super long throat that a dedicated 88 or 90 gr rifle should have, it's more like a .120" freebore, so I can't run the super high charges that they're seeing.

I'm seeing great results with LC brass at 23.8 gr of N135. It's ruining approximately 30-50% of my once-fired LC brass on the first firing. Stepping down to 23.6 gr helps a LOT... like Bob said, small changes in charge weight make big differences. Another shooter with more rounds on his barrel uses 24.1 with great results. ALL of this is WAY over book max, so step up carefully.

I'm not sure what my muzzle velocity is, but at 80 deg or so ambient at Indiana elevations, I'm seeing 1410-1420 fps impact velocity at 1000 yards. Stupid low SD's, great elevation on target (<1 moa) when I can settle in and hold it still.

I'll have to take Mr. Ludd's advice on a milder first firing to help with trashing as much brass in the future. I had been blaming over-swaged LC brass, but there might be more to it.
I believe there can be a lot more to it in some instances, meaning we can't always know every single detail of someone's setup and reloading practices merely from reading terse descriptions at internet shooting forums. This especially concerns me when we're talking about running heavies in .223 Rem loads that are predicted (QL) to be over 60K psi, or thereabouts. The people I know that have successfully run loads like this have spent years testing and define their reloading approach with these loads and it's not something that can be outlined fully in just a few sentences.

For example, it has been well-documented that jacket failures with heavy .224" bullets can be largely mitigated using a 0.219"/0.224" rather than a 0.218"/0.224" bore/groove configuration. My testing leads me to believe that the 0.219" bore also runs markedly lower pressures for a given load, even though velocity for a given charge weight does not seem to change at all. One explanation for this might lie in reducing the amount of pressure derived from the engravement force. In addition, one occasionally hears of using things such as gain-twist barrels and bore rider reamer/chamber designs to help minimize the effects of relatively high-pressure loads. Then there is the varying case head/webbing thickness (and hardness) of different brands of .223 Rem brass that allows some brands to withstand higher pressure than others. Unfortunately, detailed descriptions of such equipment modifications often appear to be overlooked when loads producing almost fantastic velocities are described at internet shooting forums.

My point is simply that reloaders/shooters should exercise caution when considering whether to use a particular .223 Rem rifle setup to launch 85-95 gr bullets. Further, if the decision is made to pursue this path, one needs to exercise extra caution during the load workup due to the pressures that are likely to be involved. I get it, everyone wants that extra little bit of an edge on their competitors, especially when it can be obtained from a cartridge with minimal recoil like the .223 Rem. Nonetheless, a valuable exercise for anyone thinking about going down this road would be to compare the predicted wind deflection for a .224" heavy bullet at velocities corresponding to realistic accuracy nodes.

As an example, the 2850 fps velocity often seen at shooting forums probably originates from the fact that it represents a very good accuracy node with 90 VLDs from a 30" barrel over H4895 (OBT Node 4/1.3684 ms). Unfortunately, running such a load is VERY hard on brass. For that reason, some choose to run the 90s at a slightly more reasonable velocity of around 2775 fps, which is much easier on brass and also shoots with extremely good precision. So what would be the predicted difference in wind deflection for loads with 90 VLDs at 2850 fps versus 2775 fps?

2850 fps.png 2775 fps.png

I ran ballistic predictions at JBM Ballistics using a generic set of atmospheric conditions for 90 VLDs at 2850 and 2775 fps. As can be seen in the outputs, the 2850 fps load would enjoy a predicted wind deflection of ~0.1 MOA less than the 2775 fps load at 600 yd, and ~0.3 MOA less at 1000 yd. I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that very few F-TR shooters could actually shoot the difference between these two loads at 600 yd in terms of generating a bona fide statistical difference. A statistical difference in scores might well be realized over time with the predicted 0.3 MOA difference at 1000 yd, but again, it's not an "in your face huge" difference. I understand that it's human nature to strive for every little bit of performance possible, especially among shooters that routinely place at the top of the leaderboard in big matches. Nonetheless, I think the fairly minor differences in wind deflection between running 90 VLDs at these two different nodes illustrates the principle that velocity isn't everything, especially when really poor brass life is part of the equation at the high node. Food for thought.
 
I believe there can be a lot more to it in some instances, meaning we can't always know every single detail of someone's setup and reloading practices merely from reading terse descriptions at internet shooting forums. This especially concerns me when we're talking about running heavies in .223 Rem loads that are predicted (QL) to be over 60K psi, or thereabouts. The people I know that have successfully run loads like this have spent years testing and define their reloading approach with these loads and it's not something that can be outlined fully in just a few sentences.

For example, it has been well-documented that jacket failures with heavy .224" bullets can be largely mitigated using a 0.219"/0.224" rather than a 0.218"/0.224" bore/groove configuration. My testing leads me to believe that the 0.219" bore also runs markedly lower pressures for a given load, even though velocity for a given charge weight does not seem to change at all. One explanation for this might lie in reducing the amount of pressure derived from the engravement force. In addition, one occasionally hears of using things such as gain-twist barrels and bore rider reamer/chamber designs to help minimize the effects of relatively high-pressure loads. Then there is the varying case head/webbing thickness (and hardness) of different brands of .223 Rem brass that allows some brands to withstand higher pressure than others. Unfortunately, detailed descriptions of such equipment modifications often appear to be overlooked when loads producing almost fantastic velocities are described at internet shooting forums.

My point is simply that reloaders/shooters should exercise caution when considering whether to use a particular .223 Rem rifle setup to launch 85-95 gr bullets. Further, if the decision is made to pursue this path, one needs to exercise extra caution during the load workup due to the pressures that are likely to be involved. I get it, everyone wants that extra little bit of an edge on their competitors, especially when it can be obtained from a cartridge with minimal recoil like the .223 Rem. Nonetheless, a valuable exercise for anyone thinking about going down this road would be to compare the predicted wind deflection for a .224" heavy bullet at velocities corresponding to realistic accuracy nodes.

As an example, the 2850 fps velocity often seen at shooting forums probably originates from the fact that it represents a very good accuracy node with 90 VLDs from a 30" barrel over H4895 (OBT Node 4/1.3684 ms). Unfortunately, running such a load is VERY hard on brass. For that reason, some choose to run the 90s at a slightly more reasonable velocity of around 2775 fps, which is much easier on brass and also shoots with extremely good precision. So what would be the predicted difference in wind deflection for loads with 90 VLDs at 2850 fps versus 2775 fps?

View attachment 1406761 View attachment 1406762

I ran ballistic predictions at JBM Ballistics using a generic set of atmospheric conditions for 90 VLDs at 2850 and 2775 fps. As can be seen in the outputs, the 2850 fps load would enjoy a predicted wind deflection of ~0.1 MOA less than the 2775 fps load at 600 yd, and ~0.3 MOA less at 1000 yd. I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that very few F-TR shooters could actually shoot the difference between these two loads at 600 yd in terms of generating a bona fide statistical difference. A statistical difference in scores might well be realized over time with the predicted 0.3 MOA difference at 1000 yd, but again, it's not an "in your face huge" difference. I understand that it's human nature to strive for every little bit of performance possible, especially among shooters that routinely place at the top of the leaderboard in big matches. Nonetheless, I think the fairly minor differences in wind deflection between running 90 VLDs at these two different nodes illustrates the principle that velocity isn't everything, especially when really poor brass life is part of the equation at the high node. Food for thought.

Totally agree. Well stated.
 
I have this theory that people aren't paying nearly enough attention to the back of the bullet. The back of the bullet should be in the same place that the cartridge was originally designed for with the bullet it was designed for. If you're shooting a 223 that was designed for a 55 grain bullet then your 88 grain bullet should sit in the neck at the same place. If you don't do that you're essentially shooting a different cartridge.

Definitely above my pay grade to understand this.
 

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