22 LR reamer

[Tony K Harper]

Tony:

My tenure and experience in the RF shooting sports is a little broader than clip fed rifles. The pure pursuit of accuracy is not proprietary to RFBR FYI, and success on the Olympic stage requires nothing less than what you would expect from the best of your equipment I assure you. I was fortunate to know and learn from Karl - his skill and accomplishments are surpassed by no one. If you ever own one of his triggers, you will see just how amazing he was. And he did it all without a podium, never harming anyone or any product associated with the sport he loved.

This is just a hunch, but any "spec" rifles remaining from back in the day have long since been re-barreled (many have been documented as such). Wouldn't stop them from winning - although you have to look really hard to find one at the upper end of RFBR results these days. But knowing for certain what chamber is in them is speculation IMHO.

And just because a certain smith uses a certain chamber (mine included), doesn't mean there aren't better ways to do things. If we listened to all the hard line thinking of 25 years ago, we would never have:

- The amazing Stiller 2500X action
- SAP ignitions that currently dominate RFBR
- Lapua ammunition dominance (and the healthy competition that comes from it that makes all products better)

Additionally, many (including Jerry) are boring their chambers - which is pretty exciting from a machinists perspective. A CNC can operate at speeds we cannot achieve with a common lathe (improving finish), and the programming allows any conceivable profile - no dedicated tooling. Jerry's chambers are not the 2 degree straight sided chambers of old (and his guns heavily populate the top 20 of any RFBR competition these days).

At the end of the day, there is only so much we can do with this antiquated cartridge (and the chambers we use for it). I don't know where the next innovation will come from, but I'm excited to see where things go / are going.

kev (OU812)

Kev,
Please correct me if I’m wrong but I thought Lones Wigger had more wins in Olympic shooting than any other American shooter.

I have seen the Kenyon triggers as good as they are I don’t think they compare to current production models such as the Flavio Fare or Bix and Andy.

The last Calfee Spec rifle was built more than 10 -12 years ago. I’m sure all kinds of things have been done to them since. The winning records and match wins I was referring to was done when they were fairly new and before they were modified. Many of the records still stand today.

The Stiller actions are indeed very good and they have had a share of wins. I’m not sure one can say they dominate. Just this past weekend Brian Brant won all three major events including the Professional Shooting League tournament. He was shooting a Turbo.
But you are certainly right about how popular they are. You will find they make up about 3/4ths of the entire field in any RFBR match.

As for boring chambers, it certainly works for those with the equipment to do it, but it is good to know even the small guys with manual equipment can still turn out winning rifles from time to time. By the way how did you and Jerry make out on that chamber for your Bleiker?

We all want to think that whatever division of rimfire shooting we choose is the best and most accurate, but we really need to spend more time understanding the differences instead of arguing about them. We are so lucky to live in a country that still allows us enjoy shooting sports.
TKH

 

[Jefferson]

wonder what reamer Lilja uses when they do a barrel for Bleiker

 

[kevin nevius]

Kevin,
you are correct but I for one don’t believe the calfee sap/pas conclusion

and I was kidding about the clip fed guys

progress is not a straight road, and the journey is muddied and rain filled a lot

however the rimfire benchrest guys ring out accuracy maybe the best, although my buddy who has shot a few times on,the World Cup shoots awesome in a sling with iron sights

I feel it is easier to QUANTIFY results on a bench with rests than with a sling, irons even with interchangeable sights, and a wind flag that is really poor for World Cup events

progress os a combination of folks attempting to test theories and have the theories become factual

as true immutable facts are for the most part hard to come by in the rimfire world

Hi Jefferson:

My apologies, I never meant to imply that prone shooting (in position) was comparable to BR (shooting from a bench). And I don't know of a single serious National or International competitor that does not test (tune or validate performance) from a rest, or a fixed system in a test tunnel. I have used a bench for validation for my entire career - I don't know of any better way to isolate the system mechanically.

And my only point was that we are all looking for the same accuracy, regardless of discipline. How we get there is very similar, and RFBR has been exceptionally innovative - you can see the changes in the rifles through the years.

From a purely financial perspective - countries fielding teams on the Olympic stage have been pouring money into research (rifles and ammunition development) for as long as I can remember. The partnership with Federal prior to the 1992 Olympics brought about great ammunition for all of the RF shooting sports (Karl Kenyon was the armor for the Team USA, and built the rifles that brought home two medals just that year alone). He felt (as do I) that the shallower leade angle was optimal for round nosed ammunition, with unlimited tunnel testing to back it up.

My apologies for any confusion,

kev (OU812)

 

[nulzehb46]

Highnoon,

Here is the gauge I use. it was made by Gerry Gereg there was a write up here on AS. Hawkeye Wizard (Ron Elbe) wrote about his experiences using one on RFC.
Unfortunately, it seems that Gerry is either not making them anymore or sadly he may have passed away. his email is still valid, but he has not replied for nearly two years now.

Lee

I got Gerry gauge about 12-18 months ago.. hard to get in contact with him…,and took a few months to get the tool… but a great guy

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I got Gerry gauge about 12-18 months ago.. hard to get in contact with him…,and took a few months to get the tool… but a great guy

That is about when he stopped answering emails.
what have you found using the gauge?

Lee

 

[nulzehb46]

That is about when he stopped answering emails.
what have you found using the gauge?

Lee

Lee, for me… I like the results better than rim thickness

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee, for me… I like the results better than rim thickness

I never done the other sorting like weight and rim thickness. it never made sense to me especially weight sorting. any variable would be a guess on what caused the difference.
but AOL and how it will affect bullet engraving made sense.

Lee

 

[Mt.Boy]

I never done the other sorting like weight and rim thickness. it never made sense to me especially weight sorting. any variable would be a guess on what caused the difference.
but AOL and how it will affect bullet engraving made sense.

Lee

Are these gauges still being made. Would like to try one

 

[TRSR8]

I never done the other sorting like weight and rim thickness. it never made sense to me especially weight sorting. any variable would be a guess on what caused the difference.
but AOL and how it will affect bullet engraving made sense.

Lee

Lapua seems better but with ELEY , lot to lot could be as much as a full .010”. Which could be a problem, especially with MI barrels.
Back when ELEY was #1 the WLM would regularly push for them to indicate OAL on the boxes.
If a chamber got cut for one lot’s lenght and you finished it….potential problem.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have not tested it, but I wonder how much the lead angle really matters when we are engraving the bullet so much. In centerfire there is a relationship between to ogive shape of the bullet and the lead angle. But it rimfire there is no such relation ship because the ogive is so far into the lands. About all I can see it doing is altering the pressure it takes to start the bullet moving. Although a half degree dont seem like it would change much especially with a lead bullet. I have experimented with the angles quite a bit in centerfire and the differences are so small I have to wonder it they would even be noticeable with a lead bullet.

 

[TRSR8]

I have not tested it, but I wonder how much the lead angle really matters when we are engraving the bullet so much. In centerfire there is a relationship between to ogive shape of the bullet and the lead angle. But it rimfire there is no such relation ship because the ogive is so far into the lands. About all I can see it doing is altering the pressure it takes to start the bullet moving. Although a half degree dont seem like it would change much especially with a lead bullet. I have experimented with the angles quite a bit in centerfire and the differences are so small I have to wonder it they would even be noticeable with a lead bullet.

It is my understanding one of the factors involved is how fast you get lead/ carbon in the throat with some bore configurations to the point of accuracy deterioration at an unacceptable rate.
I know, for instance, chambers done in some barrels tailored to a specific lot, when that lot was exhausted, the gun went south to a degree.
P.S. Your former blue gun is shooting well….nice build.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Thanks. I am not sure how a 2 vs a 1.5 degree lead would foul differently but maybe they do. I have never seen lead in any of the rimfires I have chambered but the carbon ring is there for sure. But it only takes one push with a brush to remove. You often see statements like 1.5 for lapua and 2 for eley. But since the engraving is so deep the lead angle only sees the shank of the bullet not the ogive. So the ogive just would have no relationship with the lead. So it would not matter unless it was only start up pressure to get the bullet moving. In other words the lead angle does not know the shape of the bullet in this case.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Are these gauges still being made. Would like to try one

Unfortunately, not this one in particular.

Lee

 

[Mt.Boy]

Unfortunately, not this one in particular.

Lee

Thanks Lee.

 

[TRSR8]

Thanks. I am not sure how a 2 vs a 1.5 degree lead would foul differently but maybe they do. I have never seen lead in any of the rimfires I have chambered but the carbon ring is there for sure. But it only takes one push with a brush to remove. You often see statements like 1.5 for lapua and 2 for eley. But since the engraving is so deep the lead angle only sees the shank of the bullet not the ogive. So the ogive just would have no relationship with the lead. So it would not matter unless it was only start up pressure to get the bullet moving. In other words the lead angle does not know the shape of the bullet in this case.

I was really commenting on the OAL factor related to carbon/ lead in throat not really the throat angle which, as you stated likely is not critical with a properly cut chamber.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lapua seems better but with ELEY , lot to lot could be as much as a full .010”. Which could be a problem, especially with MI barrels.
Back when ELEY was #1 the WLM would regularly push for them to indicate OAL on the boxes.
If a chamber got cut for one lot’s lenght and you finished it….potential problem.

Tim,
I can't say anything on Eley. Lapua is getting better and better. the consistency of AOL is in some lots under 0.010.

Lee