22 LR Long Range Dispersion, What is the Culprit

[padom]

Nobody is questioning the methodology sport, what is being questioned is the fact that you simply don’t know how to apply it, making yourself look far better than the holes show, so you can “ ha ha ha” all you want.
Perhaps you should simply declare them them zeros.
Some guys shoot groups in competition on a regular basis, if you’re going to publish info, then beat your chest about it, the least you could do is be somewhat accurate about it
Gotta get me a set of those Snipers Hide calipers, I guess.

First I'm not your sport. Second, you've been beating your chest about how experienced and awesome you are for years and how wrong everyone else is measuring grouos. This isn't the first time you've brought this up. I havent made any claims other than the data on the target.

You obviously feel some kind of way and guess what, nobody cares. Numerous people have chimed in the last time you brought this up publicly that this is the exact same way they measure groups and every match they have been to measures groups.

My calipers are calibrated and work just fine. And ive posted videos showing my measurements in the past. I have nothing to hide or claim.

You are just but hurt and guess what, nobody cares.

 

[TRSR8]

First I'm not your sport. Second, you've been beating your chest about how experienced and awesome you are for years and how wrong everyone else is measuring grouos. This isn't the first time you've brought this up. I havent made any claims other than the data on the target.

You obviously feel some kind of way and guess what, nobody cares. Numerous people have chimed in the last time you brought this up publicly that this is the exact same way they measure groups and every match they have been to measures groups.

My calipers are calibrated and work just fine. And ive posted videos showing my measurements in the past. I have nothing to hide or claim.

You are just but hurt and guess what, nobody cares.

This is not about me. The question asked remains unanswered. It is not a trick question, you don’t need a college degree.
How is it possible for a group with space between holes to yield a group smaller than a single bullet hole?
You’re the marksman that posted up 17 such groups.

 

[xswanted]

It should go without saying that gravity affects all the bullets equally. It can't be otherwise.

But perhaps you missed the relevant point, which is as distance increases the bullets take longer to get to targets farther away. During this longer time, vertical dispersion due to gravity increases. This is one reason why group dispersion increases with distance.

This is confusing.

If gravity is effecting each bullet the same how is it also contributing to vertical dispersion?

 

[DShortt]

Lots of weird things posted in this thread. A .22lr is not a round designed for accuracy. It was designed long ago to be cheap above all else. Velocity range and bullet weight is all over the place. Priming compound placed around the rim, and the methods are not discussed openly. Flat based bullets. Lube formulas not discussed openly. Some don't even use lubes. Rabbit hole over cleaning practices. The trajectory of a round of that weight, diameter and with a flat base over extended distance. Etc, Etc.

It's not a round designed to perform consistently at long distance is the upshot of it all. If you want to know why, Jim Carmichael covered a whole lot of this decades ago writing for Outdoor Life. Worth a look if you are interested in knowing exactly why without a whole bunch of confusing data to wade through.

 

[xswanted]

Lots of weird things posted in this thread. A .22lr is not a round designed for accuracy. It was designed long ago to be cheap above all else. Velocity range and bullet weight is all over the place. Priming compound placed around the rim, and the methods are not discussed openly. Flat based bullets. Lube formulas not discussed openly. Some don't even use lubes. Rabbit hole over cleaning practices. The trajectory of a round of that weight, diameter and with a flat base over extended distance. Etc, Etc.

It's not a round designed to perform consistently at long distance is the upshot of it all. If you want to know why, Jim Carmichael covered a whole lot of this decades ago writing for Outdoor Life. Worth a look if you are interested in knowing exactly why without a whole bunch of confusing data to wade through.

It wasn’t designed for that yes.

However it is possible to have a 22 perform on a consistent basis depending on your definition “long range”

From 0-250 yards with quality ammo/barrel and a competent shooter, they are quite accurate and consistent.

Past 250 I think is where things get wonky for most combinations.

Having said that, when things are working well and data is on, they are quite a bit of fun at 300+ yards.

 

[DShortt]

I've done that just to 'ding' a steel plate at 300 yds. Scope elevation was absurd, wind had to either be very consistent or non-existant.

Not something repeatable nor particularly useful. I sure didn't fuss about a miss.

It wasn't Eley ammo. It wasn't a purpose built gun. It wasn't anything to brag about.

 

[grauhanen]

This is confusing.

If gravity is effecting each bullet the same how is it also contributing to vertical dispersion?

It shouldn't be confusing. Put simply, gravity affects bullets (and everything else) the same way and equally. They fall due to gravity.

Slower bullets take longer to get to the target than faster ones. This means slower bullets have more time to fall further. That's why they have a lower POI than faster bullets. As a result different MVs results in vertical dispersion.

 

[DShortt]

It shouldn't be confusing. Put simply, gravity affects bullets (and everything else) the same way and equally. They fall due to gravity.

Slower bullets take longer to get to the target than faster ones. This means slower bullets have more time to fall further. That's why they have a lower POI than faster bullets. As a result different MVs results in vertical dispersion.

If the muzzle velocity is different, vertical dispersion will ensue at any range. The less ballistically efficient a bullet is, the more velocity variations will cause vertical dispersion. A .22lr bullet is NOT ballistically efficient.

Ballistic efficiency means, how fast does muzzle velocity drop due to the resistance of the atmosphere. (Air). A round nosed bullet with a flat base has 2 things working against it. Add in other variables, things get exponential really fast.

Add in wind, and things get really complicated.

Getting back to velocity variations, it could be anything from priming compound to case capacity to charge weight to inconsistent powder performance to inconsistent neck tension to inconsistent seating to inconsistent bullet weight to Etc, Etc, ad nausea.

Your ammunition comes 50 rounds at a time from a factory. You're relying on mass production ammunition to produce far beyond typical results.

Bottom line. Your past the design limits. If everything isn't perfect, you'll see it.

 

[xswanted]

It shouldn't be confusing. Put simply, gravity affects bullets (and everything else) the same way and equally. They fall due to gravity.

Slower bullets take longer to get to the target than faster ones. This means slower bullets have more time to fall further. That's why they have a lower POI than faster bullets. As a result different MVs results in vertical dispersion.

But that’s not gravity. Gravity is equal.

Velocity is the culprit.

 

[DShortt]

But that’s not gravity. Gravity is equal.

Velocity is the culprit.

In this limited scope. Velocity is not the only factor regarding accuracy.

 

[xswanted]

In this limited scope. Velocity is not the only factor regarding accuracy.

Right.

There’s a myriad of things that will. As I’ve said earlier in this thread gun handling is paramount in shooting a 22 at long distances. Along with lot tested ammo, etc etc.

 

[grauhanen]

But that’s not gravity. Gravity is equal.

Velocity is the culprit.

It's not clear what the stumbling block is in your logic.

Without gravity, velocity wouldn't be a culprit. It wouldn't be relevant unless gravity were involved.

In a hypothetical scenario in which gravity was uninvolved, faster and slower rounds would theoretically have the same POI. Some rounds might take longer to get to the target than others but that wouldn't affect the gravity-free trajectory.

 

[xswanted]

It's not clear what the stumbling block is in your logic.

Without gravity, velocity wouldn't be a culprit. It wouldn't be relevant unless gravity were involved.

In a hypothetical scenario in which gravity was uninvolved, faster and slower rounds would theoretically have the same POI. Some rounds might take longer to get to the target than others but that wouldn't affect the gravity-free trajectory.

It's not clear what the stumbling block is in your logic.

Without gravity, velocity wouldn't be a culprit. It wouldn't be relevant unless gravity were involved.

In a hypothetical scenario in which gravity was uninvolved, faster and slower rounds would theoretically have the same POI. Some rounds might take longer to get to the target than others but that wouldn't affect the gravity-free trajectory.

This:

“But perhaps you missed the relevant point, which is as distance increases the bullets take longer to get to targets farther away. During this longer time, vertical dispersion due to gravity increases. This is one reason why group dispersion increases with distance.”

Gravity is always, it cannot have an effect on something longer than something else as long as both objects are on earth.

It’s acting the bullet from the time it’s on the shelf at the store to the the time it’s lead debris in a pile of dirt somewhere.

The object’s ability to resist gravity is what creates the variable. Which in the case of vertical dispersion and external ballistics would equal to, velocity, coefficient, wind and other environmentals.


The reason the bullet is in the air longer, and thus, “gravity is having more time to act on it” is because it’s going slower.

A slower object, aimed at a distant target, launched with the same trajectory as a faster object would in fact hit lower on the target assuming all is equal with both objects, other than their initial velocity.


I understand what you are stating, but it’s confusing.

 

[DShortt]

So assuming you are shooting from the exact same position and the ammunition is the same, you have to raise the centerline of the bore to get the bullet to strike the target at a longer distance, assuming the height of the target remains the same. Meaning, the ground is perfectly flat, you move the target further from your shooting position and intend to strike the same target in the same spot.
It takes a bit longer for the bullet to strike the target, so it is correct to say gravity has longer to act on the bullet for two reasons. 1 - it takes longer for the bullet to reach the target at increased distance, and 2 - the bullet velocity will decrease because it's in the air longer and the resistance of flying through the atmosphere will slow it down more.
I think the fact that the centerline of the bore has to be raised to impact the target at a longer distance is the source of the confusion.

 

[grauhanen]

“But perhaps you missed the relevant point, which is as distance increases the bullets take longer to get to targets farther away. During this longer time, vertical dispersion due to gravity increases. This is one reason why group dispersion increases with distance.”

Gravity is always, it cannot have an effect on something longer than something else as long as both objects are on earth.

It’s acting the bullet from the time it’s on the shelf at the store to the the time it’s lead debris in a pile of dirt somewhere.

The object’s ability to resist gravity is what creates the variable

This doesn't add clarity.

The further the target the more gravity affects vertical dispersion.

A bullet doesn't have innate ability to resist gravity. Nothing does. In the simplest terms, everything on the planet is always affected by gravity. Regardless if a bullet is faster or slower, the force of gravity remains unchanging.

What changes is how long the force acts on something, in this case a bullet. A .22LR bullet flying to 200 yards will have a trajectory influenced by gravity for more than twice as long as will a .22LR bullet flying to only half the distance.

I doubt if it would be useful to comment any further on this subject so this will be it for me.

 

[xswanted]

This doesn't add clarity.

The further the target the more gravity affects vertical dispersion.

A bullet doesn't have innate ability to resist gravity. Nothing does. In the simplest terms, everything on the planet is always affected by gravity. Regardless if a bullet is faster or slower, the force of gravity remains unchanging.

What changes is how long the force acts on something, in this case a bullet. A .22LR bullet flying to 200 yards will have a trajectory influenced by gravity for more than twice as long as will a .22LR bullet flying to only half the distance.

I doubt if it would be useful to comment any further on this subject so this will be it for me.

That’s probably a good idea.

I’ll go adjust my gravity the next time I run into vertical dispersion.

 

[DShortt]

The longer the bullet is in the air, the more time things like wind and inconsistency between the bullets can effect the point of impact.
Gravity, in and of itself, is the one constant. It never changes.

This is why long range shooters are interested in high velocity and maintaining velocity as much as possible.

You start crossing the sound barrier and things that are above my level of understanding begin to occur. Best avoided if possible is all I'm interested in.

 

[jelenko]

It's not clear what the stumbling block is in your logic.

Without gravity, velocity wouldn't be a culprit. It wouldn't be relevant unless gravity were involved.

In a hypothetical scenario in which gravity was uninvolved, faster and slower rounds would theoretically have the same POI. Some rounds might take longer to get to the target than others but that wouldn't affect the gravity-free trajectory.

Without spacetime, nothing would matter - gravity wouldn't exist.

 

[TRSR8]

FWIW, there is another issue impacting the entire equation. None of these calculations factor one issue involving 22 LR slugs in the real world…. Bullet stability or lack there of right from the getgo. Having measured hundreds of targets at typical BR distances, it’s amazing how frequently holes verify less than stabile slugs, I would suspect impacting the whole flight time/gravity deal Over a few hundred yards.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Impact!