Need suggestions to fix primers backing out on 22 hornet loads. Factory hornady 35gr v max are about the worst, reloads with 9.0-9.6 gr of h110 are better. Reloads are frontier brass 45gr Speer soft point cci 500 primers. 9.6 gr loads are inch or better at 100yds, I’d like to stay at that load if I can fix the problem. Rifle is very lightly used Winchester 43. I’m leaning toward brass or headspace issue as pressures should be ok. Any help would be appreciated!
22 hornet primers back out
- Thread starter Rogerwingateusa
- Start date
Thanks for reply, however I need some education. What do you mean by setting up a jam? Thanks!
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
It's not a problem at all, unless they are backing out too far. More than about .006". I would have to look at a chamber drawing to get the exact amount. You can probably measure how far the primer is sticking out and get an idea of your actual clearance.
The Hornet headspaces off the rim, but even cartridges that headspace off the shoulder will do the same thing with medium pressure loads.
Primer backs out to whatever the headspace is when ignited. Then the powder charge ignites, here's where it gets confusing.
Low pressure load, primer backs out, case does not fully expand and chamber pressure pushes the case back to the breech face, re-seating the primer.
High pressure load, primer backs out, case expands to fill the chamber and sticks tight. Tight enough that the case stretches back to the breech face and re-seats the primer.
Medium pressure(loose term) primer backs out, case sticks to the chamber wall, but not enough pressure to stretch the case. this keeps the case from moving back and re-seating the primer. This is likely you.
This is more common in rimmed cartridges, not so much because of how they headsapce, but because they tend to have chamber pressures in the low 40,000 psi or below range. The 30-30 is pretty well known for this also.
You can allow the brass to grow, but with no real shoulder to rest on, it might be sticky to chamber, but a lot of people get away with it.
This happens a lot with sub-sonic loads and new brass. It might take 6 or more firings to get the brass to quit growing. Easier to fire form the brass as a super load first.
Or as suggested seat the bullet long and essentially headspace off the bullet to get the cartridge to fill the chamber.
The Hornet headspaces off the rim, but even cartridges that headspace off the shoulder will do the same thing with medium pressure loads.
Primer backs out to whatever the headspace is when ignited. Then the powder charge ignites, here's where it gets confusing.
Low pressure load, primer backs out, case does not fully expand and chamber pressure pushes the case back to the breech face, re-seating the primer.
High pressure load, primer backs out, case expands to fill the chamber and sticks tight. Tight enough that the case stretches back to the breech face and re-seats the primer.
Medium pressure(loose term) primer backs out, case sticks to the chamber wall, but not enough pressure to stretch the case. this keeps the case from moving back and re-seating the primer. This is likely you.
This is more common in rimmed cartridges, not so much because of how they headsapce, but because they tend to have chamber pressures in the low 40,000 psi or below range. The 30-30 is pretty well known for this also.
You can allow the brass to grow, but with no real shoulder to rest on, it might be sticky to chamber, but a lot of people get away with it.
This happens a lot with sub-sonic loads and new brass. It might take 6 or more firings to get the brass to quit growing. Easier to fire form the brass as a super load first.
Or as suggested seat the bullet long and essentially headspace off the bullet to get the cartridge to fill the chamber.
Model 43 Winchesters in both 22 Hornet and 218 Bee (also 25-20) can have headspace issues. The only locking lug is the bolt handle. It is based on a 22 RF action. So my guess is that you have an excessive headspace issue. Look at the bolt handle/action interface and see what sort of wear your rifle has.
Had a 43 years ago that was so bad, it really was a re-loadable 22 magnum velocity wise. Anything more than that and you got case head separations. Brass is very thin so it doesn't take too much excessive headspace to cause problems.
Bob
Had a 43 years ago that was so bad, it really was a re-loadable 22 magnum velocity wise. Anything more than that and you got case head separations. Brass is very thin so it doesn't take too much excessive headspace to cause problems.
Bob
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
This wouldn't matter with a cartridge like the Hornet that headspaces off the rim.
Scott
Yeah you’re right
Thanks everyone- upon further thinking about it , the reloads are probably better because I only neck sized them enough to seat the bullet. So that pretty much amounts to fire forming so I’m not exactly using the rim to headspace entirely, I think. Dellet and STS , you gave me direction on how to proceed, even better I have a two piece bolt that I can shim . Trigger shims has some for Winchester 52/43 so I can correct headspace if it comes down to it. I wasn’t aware of the problem until brass wouldn’t seat easily in hornady shell holder I use with decapper die. Thanks again!
I read on a .303 forum that some were putting a very small oring on the chamber side of the rim and fire forming the case and only neck sizing after that to solve that issue in milsurp rifles with excessive headspace. FYI, I have never tried this and have no idea if it would work. Many of the hornets factory headspace is up to .010 larger than most modern Hornet brass.
That makes sense to me. I’d also like to find some old brass to see if it had thicker rims. Hope to get some time and weather to chase this down this weekend. Thanks
Different primer related problem....
I used to have a Contender in .22 Hornet. I used a similar load of H110 and 45 gr Sierra Hornet bullet, and Winchester brass. I got 2 firings out of the new Winchester brass before the primer pockets would not hold a primer. I tossed all 100 pieces of the Winchester brass.
PopCharlie
I used to have a Contender in .22 Hornet. I used a similar load of H110 and 45 gr Sierra Hornet bullet, and Winchester brass. I got 2 firings out of the new Winchester brass before the primer pockets would not hold a primer. I tossed all 100 pieces of the Winchester brass.
PopCharlie
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That is what I do to fireform 22 savage HP to minimize case stretch.
The Hornet is happier not using max pressure loads.
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
With my Model 43 in 218 Bee, I use the "hard bolt lift" as my gauge for setting my sizer die. -- setting the die a "tiny scootch" lower than the hard lift cases.
We all know these cartridges space on the rim, but I also use the shoulder. Before I started doing this, I had waaayyy too many head separations.
Let those little guys grow to fit your chamber and your brass will be happier.
Heck, I'm still shooting brass that I used when I was shooting prairie dogs with Teddy Roosevelt.
We all know these cartridges space on the rim, but I also use the shoulder. Before I started doing this, I had waaayyy too many head separations.
Let those little guys grow to fit your chamber and your brass will be happier.
Heck, I'm still shooting brass that I used when I was shooting prairie dogs with Teddy Roosevelt.
Thinking more on that o-ring fix. I can understand it forcing the base against the bolt face, but wouldn't it also not allow the shoulder to expand to form with the chamber? I guess if it is small diameter some of the shoulder will grow to match the chamber, and next firing maybe the dent left by the space the o-ring takes will form out to meet at the neck-shoulder junction...? I would like to see a new brass formed with the o-ring trick after the first firing.
I think jamming the bullet to be a crush fit is the best way to form new brass to the chamber to use the shoulder vs Rim for headspace, just don't use a max load, although seating the bullet out effectively gives more space and I assume that would reduce pressure a few percentage.
I think jamming the bullet to be a crush fit is the best way to form new brass to the chamber to use the shoulder vs Rim for headspace, just don't use a max load, although seating the bullet out effectively gives more space and I assume that would reduce pressure a few percentage.
Even though the rimmed cases headspace on the rim, it is best to also make sure the shoulder of the case is in contact with the chamber, so it holds the cartridge snug against the bolt face, therefore removing any slop, that can create a headspace issue.
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