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22 Creedmoor questions

At 22CM speeds, 8T w/88 ELD-M’s does fine.


It’s the jacket, not the weight that matters. At 3200 fps and 7T the rpm is approximately 330,000 rpm and some bullets just come apart. In general you need to keep bullets under 300,000 rpm. Some will tolerate more, some need less. An 8T will give you approximately 288000 rpm.

A 7 twist is sketchy over 3000 fps. 3050 is 300k. From my tests they just shoot worse above that. Because they are OVERSPUN. Yes. Some bullet designs will shoot overspun some but why would you purposely overspin a bullet? They don't shoot better. They shoot progressively worse. Then they explode too.

3200ish in an 8 twist is basically ideal spin (where a 22 cm will easily shoot 90s) . I don't care what that stupid Berger thing says. You can't get any better than ideal.
 
A 7 twist is sketchy over 3000 fps. 3050 is 300k. From my tests they just shoot worse above that. Because they are OVERSPUN. Yes. Some bullet designs will shoot overspun some but why would you purposely overspin a bullet? They don't shoot better. They shoot progressively worse. Then they explode too.

3200ish in an 8 twist is basically ideal spin (where a 22 cm will easily shoot 90s) . I don't care what that stupid Berger thing says. You can't get any better than ideal.
Thank you for that explanation...
 
Not to detract from the OPs question too much, but this discussion raised a question in my head. When dealing with the large capacity cases (220 Swift, 22-250, 22CM, 22XC), I can certainly understand the why someone would use heavier bullets (+75gr), but when using them for varmints, it seems like a person could easily run into a problem where either the bullets won't hold together, you're not pushing them fast enough to warrant the use of such a big case, or you're having to push a bullet that's so tough that it pencils through on impact. I know the 62gr ELD-VT is supposed to address some of this, but Hdy's load data says the 22CM pushes that at 3850 fps (which I think is a little overly optimistic). My math says that a 1:9 twist at 3800 fps will generate 308k rpm, where as a 1:8 at that speed would generate 346.5k rpm. So if a 22CM 1:9 barrel won't stabilize an 80gr projectile, and a person wants to shoot varmints with it, they are limiting themselves to 64gr-75gr bullets right off the bat. I don't think there would be a problem finding bullets in that range that shoot well, but who buys a rifle with a custom barrel and only develops 2 or 3 loads for it? It seems like these cartridges would be the ideal choices for shooting small groups or hitting small targets at some longer distances (600-1000 yds), but choosing a twist that will allow the rifle to work well at more than 1 thing is difficult.
 
Not to detract from the OPs question too much, but this discussion raised a question in my head. When dealing with the large capacity cases (220 Swift, 22-250, 22CM, 22XC), I can certainly understand the why someone would use heavier bullets (+75gr), but when using them for varmints, it seems like a person could easily run into a problem where either the bullets won't hold together, you're not pushing them fast enough to warrant the use of such a big case, or you're having to push a bullet that's so tough that it pencils through on impact. I know the 62gr ELD-VT is supposed to address some of this, but Hdy's load data says the 22CM pushes that at 3850 fps (which I think is a little overly optimistic). My math says that a 1:9 twist at 3800 fps will generate 308k rpm, where as a 1:8 at that speed would generate 346.5k rpm. So if a 22CM 1:9 barrel won't stabilize an 80gr projectile, and a person wants to shoot varmints with it, they are limiting themselves to 64gr-75gr bullets right off the bat. I don't think there would be a problem finding bullets in that range that shoot well, but who buys a rifle with a custom barrel and only develops 2 or 3 loads for it? It seems like these cartridges would be the ideal choices for shooting small groups or hitting small targets at some longer distances (600-1000 yds), but choosing a twist that will allow the rifle to work well at more than 1 thing is difficult.

The heavier bullets don't need to go crazy fast from the muzzle to hit the varmint going faster. The only thing that matters in downrange speed, not muzzle velocity. The higher bc bullets slow down half as fast.
 
The heavier bullets don't need to go crazy fast from the muzzle to hit the varmint going faster. The only thing that matters in downrange speed, not muzzle velocity. The higher bc bullets slow down half as fast.
True, but I was thinking that they were also tougher meaning that they need to have a noticeably higher impact velocity to expand. To be fair, if you hit a PD with a bullet that's moving 2500 fps on impact, I think the terminal results would be "satisfactory", but I've hit plenty with thin skinned projectiles that were running closer to 2,000 fps and the results are not all that impressive. I'm not sure at what impact velocity the terminal performance would become unsatisfactory for each brand and model of projectile. In reality, that hot 62gr load would still be running 2350 at 600 yds, and that's a far poke on a PD. Beyond 600yds it doesn't seem like folks are concerned about terminal performance, so its probably a moot point. Interestingly, at 600 yds, most of the ELDs are moving about the same speed and have pretty similar drifts. Beyond that it becomes a question of whether the shooter wants less drop or less drift.
 
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True, but I was thinking that they were also tougher meaning that they need to have a noticeably higher impact velocity to expand. To be fair, if you hit a PD with a bullet that's moving 2500 fps on impact, I think the terminal results would be "satisfactory", but I've hit plenty with thin skinned projectiles that were running closer to 2,000 fps and the results are not all that impressive. I'm not sure at what impact velocity the terminal performance would become unsatisfactory for each brand and model of projectile. In reality, that hot 62gr load would still be running 2350 at 600 yds, and that's a far poke on a PD. Beyond 600yds it doesn't seem like folks are concerned about terminal performance, so its probably a moot point. Interestingly, at 600 yds, most of the ELDs are moving about the same speed and have pretty similar drifts. Beyond that it becomes a question of whether the shooter wants less drop or less drift.

Cut one open. This bullet is hollow. They blow up better than anything (in .22) I have EVER shot.

This is NOT a low expansion bullet. It is a game changer.
 
Cut one open. This bullet is hollow. They blow up better than anything (in .22) I have EVER shot.

This is NOT a low expansion bullet. It is a game changer.
I presume you're talking about the 62gr eld-vt. I've not shot them yet (mainly because I don't think they make much sense for a .223 cartridge), but I can certainly see where they would be a game changer from anything bigger.

My question/concern relative to a 22CM would be whether or not the 64gr ELD-vt would hold together at 3800 fps from a 1:8 twist barrel (342k rpm). I would image they would shoot fine from a 1:9 at that speed, but if a person needs to drop back to a 9 twist, it seems like you would be giving up the option of shooting the 80-90gr stuff that the most people prefer for the longer distances.
 
I presume you're talking about the 62gr eld-vt. I've not shot them yet (mainly because I don't think they make much sense for a .223 cartridge), but I can certainly see where they would be a game changer from anything bigger.

My question/concern relative to a 22CM would be whether or not the 64gr ELD-vt would hold together at 3800 fps from a 1:8 twist barrel (342k rpm). I would image they would shoot fine from a 1:9 at that speed, but if a person needs to drop back to a 9 twist, it seems like you would be giving up the option of shooting the 80-90gr stuff that the most people prefer for the longer distances.

No need to shoot it that fast. It holds together. Not sure it groups.
 
No need to shoot it that fast. It holds together. Not sure it groups.
Now where's the fun in that?!?!?!? :) To get them down to something more reasonable, you're looking at a MV of around 3500 fps which should be achievable with a 22BR or 22ARC (bolt gun). Regardless, by the time you slow it down that much, you've given up the ballistic advantages that you were likely going for with the big cases to begin with. So it still seems to me that if a person is planning on getting a big 22cal primarily for long range varmints, they should expect to get stuck with a pretty narrow range of usable bullet weights assuming they expect to make anywhere close to full use of the case capacity. Given the expected barrel life of a 22CM, I'm not sure that's a real issue since the barrel would likely be shot out by the time you get board of blowing up PDs with the 62gr ELD-VT.
 
Now where's the fun in that?!?!?!? :) To get them down to something more reasonable, you're looking at a MV of around 3500 fps which should be achievable with a 22BR or 22ARC (bolt gun). Regardless, by the time you slow it down that much, you've given up the ballistic advantages that you were likely going for with the big cases to begin with. So it still seems to me that if a person is planning on getting a big 22cal primarily for long range varmints, they should expect to get stuck with a pretty narrow range of usable bullet weights assuming they expect to make anywhere close to full use of the case capacity. Given the expected barrel life of a 22CM, I'm not sure that's a real issue since the barrel would likely be shot out by the time you get board of blowing up PDs with the 62gr ELD-VT.

Then you would need an 8.5 twist.

Or overspin them and see how they shoot. But the speed numbers your talking, I doubt you'll like the results.
 
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“ When dealing with the large capacity cases (220 Swift, 22-250, 22CM, 22XC), I can certainly understand the why someone would use heavier bullets (+75gr), but when using them for varmints, it seems like a person could easily run into a problem where either the bullets won't hold together, you're not pushing them fast enough to warrant the use of such a big case, or you're having to push a bullet that's so tough that it pencils through on impact. “

“…they are limiting themselves to 64gr-75gr bullets right off the bat “.

“…who buys a rifle with a custom barrel and only develops 2 or 3 loads for it? “
Lefty -

Howdy !
None of the following is intended to sound coarse, harsh, abrupt; or smart _ _ _ at all;
and of course…. YRMV.

I have shot the .224” cal Hornady 55SX 550+ fps above the Mv limit Hornady has suggested for that bullet. The 55SX has a .009” thin jacket, and is a FB design with secant ogive; and an exposed lead nose on the core.

Using my “ .22-35 Remington “ wildcat as an example ( capacity 49.4gr H2O ), I had zero bullet blow ups on the way to the target. I was using a 24” SS 1-14 5-groove Hart, and retired the barrel when it started to keyhole bullets after reaching 3,400+ shot count.
Within those 3,400+ shots, I encountered none of the ballistics mischief you mentioned in your first remark. But hey, that’s just my experience. It’s a case capacity within the range of case’ “ capacities “ you noted.

Your ballistics topics and their contributing factors are multi-faceted. Let’s talk about the idea of biasing bullet wt to the fore. As regarding one potentially “ limiting “ themself to a certain weight span of bullets….It think it more likely one has a specific bullet already in mind that they want to try, and moreover… would really like to see group well; along w/ good terminal ballistics. If that bullet disappoints, they then try another bullet. Sure, they might give a variety of bullets a try over time; but one often starts out w/ a preferred bullet in mind. The case size is selected based on what terminal ballistics ( and even terminal effects ) are desired when using the chosen bullet. That is different thinking than… using a heavier bullet because the case has large capacity ( in that that calibre ) …. IMHO.

If one makes informed choices on bullet ( design, construction, weight ), and also on rifling twist and case size; there are not imposing any “ limits “on themselves as regards bullet choice with respect to weight. They will be shooting pretty much exactly what they want, certainly well within a bullet wt span of the size you mentioned. More to the point, IF there is some sort of bullet “ run off “ performed; the candidate bullets would probably be the same or very close to the same weight. ( IMHO ). With this approach, the “ limit “ is what range the shooter chooses to decline humane kills at, for example… a range at which one would be concerned about having a “ crawler “ if considering taking a shot at
groundhog. “ Know when to say when “.

In response to your question:
” …who buys a [ rifle with ] custom barrel and developers only 2 or 3 loads for it ? “.
Well, I’ll give you one answer…..me. When picking the bullet first, my intent is to use that one bullet / one load ( on groundhog ) at all ranges out to the range “ limit “ mentioned above. I myself use 450 ft lb as a guide for the minimum KE I want to put on
“ Soybeanus Digestus “ @ distance. With the case capacity I mentioned and shooting an example 55SX bullet; a 25” barrel along w/ proper powder / charge choices will easily give me a valid 500yd anti-groundhog rifle; as “ wind “ in NE Indiana isn’t as large a consideration as it is out West.

Best of luck in your endeavors !


With regards,
357Mag
 
That's a fair point. While I load a hand full of different centerfire rifle cartridges, all of my 22cal stuff is 223/556, and I'm accustomed to that cartridge's versatility in that I can load 40-50gr stuff for PDs out to over 300 yds, 50-60gr stuff for coyotes, cheap 55-62gr stuff for blasting and training with the ARs, or 75gr stuff for 400-600 yds. At this point all of my other cartridges are primarily for deer, but I'll often develop a load with a "light" bullet that I can use for coyotes if I get the urge. And then there's just the idea of trying a new bullet for the fun of seeing how well I can get it to shoot. It does make sense though, that the bigger 22cals would be more task specific, so a person would set them up with a single bullet in mind, or at least that the narrow range of weights wouldn't be an issue because that narrow range is what works best for the application the shooter has in mind. I'm in the process of doing a 20 Practical upper and the only thing I plan on shooting out of it is a 40gr vmax, so I get it. I have a lot of interest in doing a 22CM, 22XC, or 22-250AI as a long distance PD gun, so this type of thing is something that I'm trying to learn more about. I'm an engineer by trade, so I tend to over think things from time to time.... lol My (still somewhat limited) experience shooting PDs is that I miss the longer ones (300-500 yds) more often due to elevation than wind, so faster can help with that. As those distances increase I can see where there could come a point where that changes and I'd want less wind deflection. Until this discussion, I was under the impression that from the same barrel I'd be able to push everything from 62gr up to 90gr almost as fast as the case would allow (accurately) which would give me some choices if I decided that past 600 yds I was willing to sacrifice some trajectory for better wind deflection. Now I'm realizing that this may not be the case. If I go with a barrel that's built around 88-90gr bullets, it could mean that the rifle MAY not be able to shoot the 62gr bullets as fast as I was hoping for. Conversely, if I set it up to get the most I can get from a 62gr bullet, it may not be able to stabilize the 90s very well. Life is full of compromises :)
 
That's a fair point. While I load a hand full of different centerfire rifle cartridges, all of my 22cal stuff is 223/556, and I'm accustomed to that cartridge's versatility in that I can load 40-50gr stuff for PDs out to over 300 yds, 50-60gr stuff for coyotes, cheap 55-62gr stuff for blasting and training with the ARs, or 75gr stuff for 400-600 yds. At this point all of my other cartridges are primarily for deer, but I'll often develop a load with a "light" bullet that I can use for coyotes if I get the urge. And then there's just the idea of trying a new bullet for the fun of seeing how well I can get it to shoot. It does make sense though, that the bigger 22cals would be more task specific, so a person would set them up with a single bullet in mind, or at least that the narrow range of weights wouldn't be an issue because that narrow range is what works best for the application the shooter has in mind. I'm in the process of doing a 20 Practical upper and the only thing I plan on shooting out of it is a 40gr vmax, so I get it. I have a lot of interest in doing a 22CM, 22XC, or 22-250AI as a long distance PD gun, so this type of thing is something that I'm trying to learn more about. I'm an engineer by trade, so I tend to over think things from time to time.... lol My (still somewhat limited) experience shooting PDs is that I miss the longer ones (300-500 yds) more often due to elevation than wind, so faster can help with that. As those distances increase I can see where there could come a point where that changes and I'd want less wind deflection. Until this discussion, I was under the impression that from the same barrel I'd be able to push everything from 62gr up to 90gr almost as fast as the case would allow (accurately) which would give me some choices if I decided that past 600 yds I was willing to sacrifice some trajectory for better wind deflection. Now I'm realizing that this may not be the case. If I go with a barrel that's built around 88-90gr bullets, it could mean that the rifle MAY not be able to shoot the 62gr bullets as fast as I was hoping for. Conversely, if I set it up to get the most I can get from a 62gr bullet, it may not be able to stabilize the 90s very well. Life is full of compromises :)

If you shoot out in the fields where the pdogs live, you will understand you miss because of getting blown off target. Even a fraction of inch can be a miss.

Although, it appears to be nearly heresy at this point to have this opinion, from my observation, there is no need to shoot anything with a BC under .350.

62 eldvt and 75 ELDM (in 22 Creedmoor) pretty much obsoletes all those others. I mean... You can shoot those little bullets, but you'll miss a lot more.
 
I'm not sure where I'd ever shoot prairie dogs other than out in the fields where they live, but I miss more due to elevation than I do to windage. If I narrow that conversation down to shots past 300 yds, and I were using something bigger/hotter than a 223, THEN most of my misses might be due to wind.

If you limit the discussion to cartridges with more case capacity than a 223, and you limit the shooting to shots beyond 250 yds, I'd completely agree with not wasting time on anything with a BC less than .350. If you are including the shooting done under 250 yds, I'd go the opposite route and say you don't need a bullet with a BC over .290.
 
I'm not sure where I'd ever shoot prairie dogs other than out in the fields where they live, but I miss more due to elevation than I do to windage. If I narrow that conversation down to shots past 300 yds, and I were using something bigger/hotter than a 223, THEN most of my misses might be due to wind.

If you limit the discussion to cartridges with more case capacity than a 223, and you limit the shooting to shots beyond 250 yds, I'd completely agree with not wasting time on anything with a BC less than .350. If you are including the shooting done under 250 yds, I'd go the opposite route and say you don't need a bullet with a BC over .290.

I get what you are saying, but since the 62 eldvt blows up better than a 53 VMAX, I would see no advantage to having two bullets.

Maybe in a straight 223, a 40 grain would be more fun at close range. I honestly haven't tested the 62 eldvt that slow.
 
For me, the advantage of the 53gr v-max (over 62gr) is simply cost. If I'm not planning on shooting much past 300 yds with a standard 223, I can't justify spending 50% more for the projectiles. If I were going with almost anything larger, or planned on shooting any further, it would be a different story. I DO want to shoot farther and faster, but the $$ isn't there yet for me to go down that road.
 

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