22 BR for mid range dogs what twist rate???

[toasty]

I'd at least want the option of going to a 62gr ELD-VT down the road. Much past 300, I'd want a little higher BC for some added wind resistance, assuming I had enough gas in the tank to push it, and a 22BR should have the gas.

https://shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=25040950

Assuming the muzzle velocities are relatively accurate in the link above, out to 500 yds the trajectory of a 53gr vmax and a 62gr ELD are VERY similar. Out to 400 yds, there's not much more than 1/4" difference, and past about 425yds the 62gr is actually flatter. Wind is another story however. There are small gains to be had at 200, but past 300 yds the higher BC of the 62gr starts making a noticeable difference.

Agree. Where the 62 eld-vt really outshines other bullets is in the wind drift. At long ranges on little targets, the wind is what causes me to miss most, not the elevation. Reducing wind drift is a big deal even at 300-400 yards if the wind is really blowing and it seems to always be blowing when I am hunting pdogs. With the 62 ELD-VT, I can keep shooting at longer ranges in the wind when I normally would have put the 22br away with the 53 vmax.

 

[Lefty2506]

I'm an equal opportunity shooter. At 300-500 yds, I miss just as many due to elevation as I do wind.... It wouldn't make sense for me to try to run a 62gr from a 223. I wouldn't make up enough in wind drift to offset my elevation misses. With a bigger case like a BR or ARC, the 62gr doesn't give up hardly anything in elevation to the lighter bullets, but it gains a lot in the wind department. It would be neat to see how fast a person could push it accurately from a 22 CM, 22XC, or 22x47 (or even a 22-250 for that matter) and then see how it would compare at that speed to something in the 80-90gr range from the same cartridge. That's a topic for a different thread though...

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm an equal opportunity shooter. At 300-500 yds, I miss just as many due to elevation as I do wind.... It wouldn't make sense for me to try to run a 62gr from a 223. I wouldn't make up enough in wind drift to offset my elevation misses. With a bigger case like a BR or ARC, the 62gr doesn't give up hardly anything in elevation to the lighter bullets, but it gains a lot in the wind department. It would be neat to see how fast a person could push it accurately from a 22 CM, 22XC, or 22x47 (or even a 22-250 for that matter) and then see how it would compare at that speed to something in the 80-90gr range from the same cartridge. That's a topic for a different thread though...

Shoots like crap too fast. From our tests.

 

[ELR LVR]

a 14 twist
22 BR is amazingly accurate at 600 yds
Especially when you're throwing them out at 3800 fps
A tighter twist will merely allow you to use heavier higher BC bullets
making contending with the WIND, much easier.
When I intro a new shooter to 600 yds
I very often whip out my 13 twist 22BR with 55 grn bullets.
Mainly due to the recoil it is so pleasureable to shoot
not to mention - Easy, Repeat hits at 600 on steel plate

 

[Lefty2506]

Shoots like crap too fast. From our tests.

I've noticed your comments about that. Seems like the 62gr ELD-vt is extremely well suited to cartridges in the 22 ARC to 22GT range, which sounds to me like a match made in heaven

 

[urbanrifleman]

I've noticed your comments about that. Seems like the 62gr ELD-vt is extremely well suited to cartridges in the 22 ARC to 22GT range, which sounds to me like a match made in heaven

3150 to 3450 is plenty.

Starts out slower but is going much faster at the pdog. It just doesn't need to be shot fast.

 

[alf]

If fast twists shoot light bullets as good as slow twists, why do manufacturers make slow twists?

 

[ELR LVR]

If fast twists shoot light bullets as good as slow twists, why do manufacturers make slow twists?

Theoretical optimum bullet stability for a "Certain Range" of most common bullet weights
But i hear ya, if a 1:7 AR-15 works just fine for 55 FMJ's why did they ever even use a 1:12?
(buy an older AR and try shooting some 69gr SMK's through it lol, that'll bring your head back to Stability Factor theory after thinking it is shot out)
I think a 1:8 is becoming pretty common now though
-------------
Overstability does affect long range trajectory though which may be a concern for long range cartridges

 

[alf]

Theoretical optimum bullet stability for a "Certain Range" of most common bullet weights
But i hear ya, if a 1:7 AR-15 works just fine for 55 FMJ's why did they ever even use a 1:12?
(buy an older AR and try shooting some 69gr SMK's through it lol, that'll bring your head back to Stability Factor theory after thinking it is shot out)
I think a 1:8 is becoming pretty common now though
-------------
Overstability does affect long range trajectory though which may be a concern for long range cartridges

Go back to older BR times where 14" was on the edge of too slow for some elevations, and 13" was "too" fast, so they went with 13.5".

 

[ELR LVR]

Go back to older BR times where 14" was on the edge of too slow for some elevations, and 13" was "too" fast, so they went with 13.5".

I have a 13 twist Br I could have sworn was a 1:14 for years
until I measured it 3 times in a row, and was like
"Ummm ok, whatever"

Lol, they were in it to the gnats ass weren't they
likely tuning for one specific bullet only

 

[alf]

I have a 13 twist Br I could have sworn was a 1:14 for years
until I measured it 3 times in a row, and was like
"Ummm ok, whatever"

Lol, they were in it to the gnats ass weren't they
likely tuning for one specific bullet only

When the ultimate in accuracy is the goal, you tend to match the twist to the bullet.(s)

For a 200-400 PD rifle, I'd just get a 12" twist & shoot 53 Vmax.

On a related note, my last AR I built with a 12" twist chambered with a 223 Rem reamer, with .025" freebore, specifically to shoot the 53 Vmaxes and/or 52 Bergers, which it does with aplomb.

 

[alf]

For a 200-400 PD rifle, I'd just get a 12" twist & shoot 53 Vmax.

And....w/o price shopping, at Midway the 53's are $23 a hundred, the 62's are $30.

 

[D Coots]

Love my 22BR with a 14tw Hart. 53 and 55gr Dog wormers.....

 

[Lefty2506]

3150 to 3450 is plenty.

Starts out slower but is going much faster at the pdog. It just doesn't need to be shot fast.

I noticed that when I was looking at the drop and drift. By 400 yds, they are pretty much running the same speed. Much farther and the 62gr is actually running faster. Whether or not a 62gr would be better than a 53gr between 200 and 400 would largely depend on whether your missies are mostly due to missed wind calls, or if they are more vertical in nature, so I'd want the ability to run both.

Beyond 400 yds, bigger cartridges pushing 80gr-90gr start to have an advantage over the 62, but that comes comes at a cost of heat, barrel life, and even more $$ for the bullets. I'm guessing the acrobatics are not as impressive either, so I can see why people would want to push that 62gr out as far as they could

 

[Mike402]

I noticed nobody is talking about RPM with respect to twist rate. When you shoot frangible bullets at high speed along with too fast of a spin, they have a tendency to blow up. I select twist rate based on the speed I am getting with the load, and then calculate RPM to be at or below the bullet's limit.

Here is some manufacturer's data on what they suggest maximum RPM should be with their respective bullets:


Dogtown 260,000
Varmint nightmare 260,000
Speer TNT 240,000
Hornady VMAX 290,000
Hornady SXSP 240,000
Sierra Varminter 216,000
Sierra Blitzking 352,000


Here's the formula to calculate RPM: (Muzzle Velocity * 720)/Twist Rate

So for instance a load going 3,350 fps in an 8 twist barrel is as follows: (3350*720)/8 2,412,000/8 = 301,500 RPM.

So using the chart above, I would be ok using the VMAX limit, as its pretty close to the 290k limit. You have to test though of course.

Lets say you are thinking about a 7 twist. Running the same numbers, that would be 344,571 RPM. Good chance of blowing up many of the bullets listed above with the exception of the Sierra Blitzking.

The advantage of high RPM is terminal effect on the target. More spin = more acrobatics and guts. So experiment with different numbers and pick the twist rate that gives you the highest RPM that the bullet will survive.

The new ELD VTs need a higher twist rate to stabilize, and I'm sure their spin limits are probably higher than anything listed on the chart above. If anyone knows this number, please post it.

Real world example: I had a couple of 8 twist 6 creedmoor barrels laying around. They were blowing up vmax's left and right. I then switched to the 80gr ELD VT and that solved the problem. I also found they are just as destructive as the vmax's based on the tests I did in this thread: Hornady Varmint Bullet Shootout

 

[urbanrifleman]

I noticed nobody is talking about RPM with respect to twist rate. When you shoot frangible bullets at high speed along with too fast of a spin, they have a tendency to blow up. I select twist rate based on the speed I am getting with the load, and then calculate RPM to be at or below the bullet's limit.

Here is some manufacturer's data on what they suggest maximum RPM should be with their respective bullets:


Dogtown 260,000
Varmint nightmare 260,000
Speer TNT 240,000
Hornady VMAX 290,000
Hornady SXSP 240,000
Sierra Varminter 216,000
Sierra Blitzking 352,000


Here's the formula to calculate RPM: (Muzzle Velocity * 720)/Twist Rate

So for instance a load going 3,350 fps in an 8 twist barrel is as follows: (3350*720)/8 2,412,000/8 = 301,500 RPM.

So using the chart above, I would be ok using the VMAX limit, as its pretty close to the 290k limit. You have to test though of course.

Lets say you are thinking about a 7 twist. Running the same numbers, that would be 344,571 RPM. Good chance of blowing up many of the bullets listed above with the exception of the Sierra Blitzking.

The advantage of high RPM is terminal effect on the target. More spin = more acrobatics and guts. So experiment with different numbers and pick the twist rate that gives you the highest RPM that the bullet will survive.

The new ELD VTs need a higher twist rate to stabilize, and I'm sure their spin limits are probably higher than anything listed on the chart above. If anyone knows this number, please post it.

Real world example: I had a couple of 8 twist 6 creedmoor barrels laying around. They were blowing up vmax's left and right. I then switched to the 80gr ELD VT and that solved the problem. I also found they are just as destructive as the vmax's based on the tests I did in this thread: Hornady Varmint Bullet Shootout

I talk about it constantly.

The 62 ELDVT does not like over spinning. And appears to not blow up out of the barrel, but shoots like crap.

Shoots amazing within the correct speed to spin range. 3000 to 3400 in an 8 twist.

 

[William Vogel]

I shoot the 62eldvt at 3490 from an 8 twist 28 inch Krieger and it shoots 3/4 moa at 700 yards all day long. I’d say that’s going to be its limit. 223AI

 

[urbanrifleman]

I shoot the 62eldvt at 3490 from an 8 twist 28 inch Krieger and it shoots 3/4 moa at 700 yards all day long. I’d say that’s going to be its limit. 223AI

What load is that?

 

[William Vogel]

What load is that?

It’s 28.5 grains of Leverevolution CCI 450 Lapua brass 2.475 coal which is touch on the lands. It’s only about 94% fill and my primers are still rounded. It’s supposed to be about 58000 psi. I’ve shot it 3600 but that’s too fast. My dope is 10.25 moa up from the 100 yard 0.

 

[Ackman]

My 22BR is a 40X with 14 twist, and along with other 22 cals. is exceptionally accurate with 50's and 55 (explosive, fast) varmint bullets out to mid range targets. A 12 twist is also very good.. It's just stupid easy to find an acccurate load with them. I've mostly sot 50's and never felt the need to shoot anything heavier than 55's in a .22 bore.
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