22 benchrest 50 yards ( set up )

[matthias]

hello this is only my second post here so thanks for the help in advance. i have a remington 540 x 22lr that will shoot 3\8 five shot groups average off bipod and rear bag. i just had a front bag rider made so i can use my caldwell rock br front rest with the leather rear bag. here are my questions

• first is how to get beter consistancy in set up of the actual gun on the rests and setting the rests, how do you do it
  second how tight or loose should the gun be in the rest and how lubed up should the rear bag be . the gun should move with recoil smoothly and repeatably right?
  third , i am getting shifting point of impact as i ahoot targets that are higher or lower in the board. how do you fix the poi shift or is it something ou just have to live with and plan for
  last how often do clean the rifle rough round count?
  
  thanks for you help i am as far as i can go with what i know. hopefully you all can get me moving forward again

 

[Shynloco]

matthias,
As you have stated, your want the best "repeatable" set-up you can muster. Your caldwell rock will work fine however, if you want better, go to either a custom rest or a Sinclair rest. As far as "lubricating" your bag for an nice even and smooth slid/recoil action, I use baby powder or talcum powder that doesn't hurt the bag or the bottom of the forend of the stock. I do wipe it off however after I'm done shooting. As far as how tight your rifle should be, I tighten the sides of front bag tight and then back off to the point where the stock slides freely, but not sloppily. You want it to be free alright, but not so much that the rifle is able to even slightly move from side to side.

As far as movement with the POI on the target..well my friend, thats come with time and learning how to overcome those issues because you are simply not getting the same, repeatable movement with your rest. In other words, whether it is your rear bag, where the rifle is not getting into the "V" shape the same and moving up or down differently, or your target acquisition is not the same. But that comes with time and practice to overcome those things. But something that is also a good practice is before you look down your scope again after having fired a round, slide you rifle back away from the front stop (if you have one) and then gently slide the rifle forward against the stop to make sure there is no gap between the front of the stop and the front of the forearm of the stock. That gap causes all sorts of problems because the recoil factor changes and the rifle could sliughtly "bounce" or move up and down from the impact of the stock hitting the stop.

Lastly, for best accuracy of YOUR PARTICULAR RIFLE, you have to find out which Rimfire Ammo works best for you. I have no idea how much you are into this type of shooting, but an absolute truth in Benchrest shooting, is that EACH rifle is different. No two reifles NECESSARILY like the same ammo, even if they are the same make, model or came off the assembly line in sequential order. You can try starting out with WOlf Match Target ammo and even go to Wolf Match Extra that go for $5 and $7 (per box of 50) respectively. You can then go up in costs from anyhwere like $10 a box up to $20 a box of 50, depending on how much you care to spend. With Rimfire ammo, you pay for the CONSISTENCY of that ammo which leads to reliability in manuifacturing to produce that same, repeatable accuracy we all seek in Benchrest shooting. The quality of your rifle also has a great deal to do with it. As with anything, the more you pay for a NEW rifle, the more likely it will produce better accuracy. Your optics also make a difference. Cheap scopes don't procude nearly as good optics as do the more expensive scopes. Thats not to say you can't find decent scopes for less.

PM me if I can be of assistance as I shoot in local competitions, but purely for fun and enjoyment. My eyes aren't what they were when I was younger, but I still get that same enjoyment and "jazzed feeling" each time I sit down behind any of my rifles that I enjoy so much to shoot. Good luck and holler anytime if I can help you in the future.

 

[dksac2]

I make sure my rifle is pushed down into the bags well, use moderate pressure.

You want to be sure you are holding the rifle exactly the same way every time, same pressure.

I shot a Savage with a different style stock than I'm used to.
By letting the rifle basically free recoil, I got the best groups.
I set the rifle in the bags, you want the rifle to be pointing right at your target, not having to put pressure on the rifle to get it on the bull, I wrapped my left arm around my right arm, lightly squeezing the rear bag for minor adjustments. I very lightly held the rifle, thumb just barely touching the top, trigger should pulled straight back every time. I tried something different than I usually do, I held onto the side of the forearm right behind the back of the rest and my shots strung.
Finding the best hold for your rifle can make a huge difference, most work well with a very light hold, some need to be held.
Sinclair makes a 3" wide forend attachment that helps a great deal, it does not hurt the rifle, can be taken off at any time and helps you to keep the rifle level for every shot which is very important and helps you keep it steadier also.

Buy a good rear bag, I like the one with double stitching and a flat bottom, $75. to $100., but they make a big difference. A rock steady table is a must also. Think consistency every shot.

I'd clean the rifle at least every 250 rounds, make sure to keep the chamber very clean, a ring builds up just in front of the case mouth that can really hurt the accuracy, clean the chamber every 100 rounds, use a brush, try not to get into the rifleing. Use a bore guide, also available from Sinclair.

My Best, John K

 

[matthias]

thanks guys. i will be shooting this weekend and i will definatly be focusing on consistancy from shot to shot. i will also try different holds and rear bags. i will aslo re install the front stop on my rest . i took it off because it did not fit my other gun. thanks agian for your help! i will re post with results after this weekend

 

[dksac2]

One last thing, make sure the rifle is aimed right at the bullseye, if you have to push it in any direction to get it on, you will have a flier. And follow through, give time for the bullet to exit the bore. Hold for at least a couple seconds after the shot is fired, it's more than is necessary, but gets you in the habit.
Also make sure the rifle is level every time, if tilted, it will throw the shot.

Aim small, shoot small.

My best, John K

 

[Steve Wilson]

John's advise on follow through is of the utmost importance. Just try a couple groups both ways; one, maintaining your focus on the target after touching the trigger off, and the other just letting the recoil happen with no further concentration on the target. You will see the difference.

Rimfires are the most demanding of rifles to shoot. Partly for the reason John mentioned. The bullet is in the barrel for so long that you have plenty of time to mess it up. Consistency in every aspect is the key. Want another little fun test? When you have a real nice group going, simply move one of your feet to a different position, or switch it from being flat on the ground to resting it on your toes. I can all but guarantee that bullet is going somewhere other than where you intended.

 

[matthias]

move my feet. move the groups. damn this may be harder than i thought. i have done some set up modifications on my bench set up making sure the rest and bag are level and the rifle does not seem to move off target when i shoot. i will follow through for a few seconds after each shot and i will make sure my feet are planted.

boy you guys are seriously building your position from the ground up. i have done more prone shooting off of a bi pod than from a bench so thanks for the imput. i am making a pre flight check list of position and set up to remember "from the ground up get set up".

thanks again guys

 

[Steve Wilson]

Oh, that is just the start. Whenever I get a shot that goes astray, the first thing I do is look down at my feet. Most always find that I have moved my left foot. Moving a foot changes the entire geometry of the way you have mounted the rifle and the amounts of pressure you have with your chest against the bench, how the rifle is sitting against your shoulder, etc. It is those very small things that change everything about your relationship to the buttstock.

22 rimfire benchrest is THE most demanding, exasperating, hair pulling, frustrating and rewarding type of shooting you can do. Once you are able to master it, centerfire almost becomes a piece of cake.

And we haven't even mentioned windflags yet. If you don't have any, or are unable to afford them; just get 3 metal rods about waist high and tie a strip of surveyor's tape to the top, making sure the tail comes close.....but not touching the ground. Just like the foot test, try firing a shot when you notice the tails raising or dipping a little bit. Or the wind switches directions slightly. I absolutely do guarantee the bullet will go someplace different now. I can't tell you how many times I've had a sparkling group going....I'm talking 4 shots into one absolute hole....hardly any bigger than from the first shot on target. The flags or tails change just the teeniest amount but I need this shot for the group. Oh, it will be OK. BANG, %@#$!&, WTH? It is NEVER OK to shoot when the wind changes. Unless you are just practicing to shoot in the wind. Wind from the left.....the bullet goes right and down. Wind from the right, the bullet goes left and up.

The advice about getting the rifle aimed at the target before you touch it is critical. If the crosshairs move any when you put your shoulder against the butt, you will pull the shot. Don't move the bags....move your shoulder until the crosshairs are back on target. Now your shoulder is square behind the butt and not influencing the way the stock will ride in the bags during recoil. Another thing, don't put your cheek against the stock, that just puts another bit of "english" on the shot. In short, don't do anything that changes where the rifle was pointing before you touched it.

Simple huh? I told you....22 rimfires off the bench are the most demanding shooting there is. Master that and the rest of it is a downhill drag.

Best of luck, we all need it.

 

[dksac2]

You my friend need to find a range with a rock steady bench to start off with.
Get a Rock front rest, they are the lowest price, decent front rest, others cost much more and at the point you are at, unless you have money to burn will not be needed.
Then get a quality rear bag, on with a flat bottom, I like the double stiched one's, $75.00 to $100. just for the rear bag. Check out Sinclair INC and Champon Shooters supply. Sinclair has the good pics and descriptions.

Buy a good front bag that fits the forend of your rifle for the Rock.

I got a 3" wide forend adapter for my Savage from Sinclair and a 3" bag for my rock, it made a very nice difference. It keeps the rifle streight (very important) and helps limit movement of the rifle.
The first time I used it was on a perfect shooting day and I shot my one and only perfect one hole group(5 shots). The hole measured .222"across. A little luck thrown in that one too, it was at 50 yds, I've never done it again, but I keep trying, come close, but maybe never again.

Anyway, be prepared to spend some money, get the best equipment you can afford, but don't over do until you outgrow what you have bought.

As all have said, consistancy is the key to 22 LR shooting. Take your time, think about everything you are going to do before doing it, then do it the sme every time.

Wind flags were mentioned, it's an art learning to use them, one I have not mastered yet, it takes time and the best have a 6th sense. For now, consentrate on consistancy and try to judge when the wind is about the same, take advntage of good wind days when possible.

It's a long road to consistant accuracy, one I'm getting much better at, but still need much more work on, especially the wind.

I shoot decent groups, but am not an expert shot.
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

My Best, John

 

[matthias]

well you guys were right. i spent the weekend shooting the 22 and have come to the conclusion that it is really fun to try and get 5 shots in the same hole. i did much better this weekend.

teh number one thing that semed to help was a consistant interface with the weapon. no shoulder touching got rid of the vertical and just barely touching the cheek piece with my chops was the other key. i would lay my thumb just behind the bolt to make sure i pulled straight back. after the shot the sights would be about 1 inch above the aiming point due to recoil and then i would use my shoulder to push forward on the stock untill the rifle hit the front stop and the crosshair was aligned as it was before the shot.

with 10 five shot groups the average was just under a quarter inch for all ten groups!
after i was done with that i shot some small bulesey targets with scoring rings. i thing they were international 50' air gun targets. was able to average 92 score over five targets ten buls each. i am really happy with my results. thanks for the help i think i may be hooked.

 

[Steve Wilson]

I'm glad to hear it went better for you. What ammo are you using and have you tried others? I use Wolf Match Target for practice in my Anschutz and it works pretty well but will produce the odd flier now and then. My particular rifle is best with old lot Lapua Midas M but it is way too expensive to burn up for practicing. Mine didn't like Federal Gold Medal, are they still even making it? It wasn't as fond of the various Eley's either.

The point being that you have to experiment with ammo until you find one that it really likes, then buy as much of that particular lot as you can afford.

Is your rifle bedded, free floated and have you messed around with various torque settings on the action screws? What about your trigger, is it factory Remington?

 

[matthias]

i have run 17 different types of different ammunition. i am currently shooting remington eley target rifle and i got 1500 rounds from the same lot. i am working right now to get a list of high end ammunition to test again now that i have improved my shooting and setup.

on another question - how many rounds would you buy ( reasonably ) to test a brand or type of ammunition ? i was thinking 100 rounds each first then get more (500)of promising loads for further testing. also i have heard there is a benifit to cleaning the lube from the previous type of ammunition before starting a new type and waiting to shoot groups untill the bore is coated with the new lube from the next ammo? is this something ou all have experienced or not an issue?

as far as the rifle goes i have the stock remington trigger and its adjusted to about 1.5 pounds and feels good to me. i know many people use lighter triggers but i am not comfortable with anything lighter.

the rifle is fit very well to the stock and i dont think bedding would make a huge improvement that practice will not produce first. if i hit a wall i will consider it but for now i need to get better as the gun does better than i do.

the rifle has two action screws and i have messed with torque on the screws and it did help with poi shift from range session to range session but not so much with making groups smaller. i will need to re visit torque with my new methods of shooting and see if it helps with group size.

 

[Steve Wilson]

17 types of ammunition? Boy, nobody could accuse you of taking any shortcuts on that front. A hundred rounds is more than plenty to evaluate; you will probably know well before you use 50, if it is something to look further into or just put them aside. I wouldn't worry about cleaning in between types, it will settle down after a few rounds and show you what it can do.

The list of high end will be Eley and Lapua, along with Wolf's various offerings. My Anschutz loves the old lot Lapua Midas M. The L bullets are a little bigger in diameter but mine prefers the M. Lapua Master is their top of the line but I hear it goes for about $25 a box. I haven't really done any precision rimfire shooting in 3 or 4 years and have a lot of ammunition already on hand from back then. Half a case of the Lapua Midas M, 2/3 case of old Lapua Multi Match Ultra L (which the rifle also shoots very well but not quite as good as the Midas) and abut 3/4 case of Wolf Match Target.

Back then, I never could get any Eley to shoot for me, and Lapua was ruling most of the matches. But things have changed. Lapua got a bad rap after they lost their main rimfire guy in a fire (or explosion, I forget now) at the pant. Some say they changed the primer compound, at any rate the ammunition went downhill. I believe both Eley and Lapua have made great strides since those days.

After trying 17 types of rimfire, your remaining, possible, selections should have been greatly reduced. It sounds like all you have left to try are the high end ones.....or some of them. I would just buy a single box, that's plenty for an evaluation. And it lowers your evaluation cost, allowing you to try others.

In the end, you will find out which ammunition works best and the accuracy potential of your rifle. Mine isn't capable of winning an RBA or ARA match but I knew that going in. I can place in the upper third but it ain't going to bring home a trophy. And that's fine with me.

Keep plugging away, you will get there.

 

[Shynloco]

Steve,

You may be aware of this, but I don't believe Lapua even makes Lapua Midas L or M any longer. If the info I've been given is correct, they quit those two ammos about a year and a half ago. The best they have now is Lapua Midas+ and my Anschutz 64 mpr loves it best followed by Center X. I've seen the Midas+ shoots REALLY nice groups in the Match 54 model.

 

[Steve Wilson]

I was not aware of the changes with Lapua. My rifle is an Anschutz 64 MPR also. Wadda know about that, small world. Mine is the stainless model that they discontinued, what.....4 or 5 years ago? It is in a Lee Six bench stock with a T 36 on top and a Hoehn tuner. The original stock is tucked away in the safe.

 

[Shynloco]

Hello Steve.
Well we both learned something from this exchange because I never knew the 64MPR even came in a stainless model. I really hadn't been paying attention to the Rimfire business until about two years ago when a close friend who got me into Benchrest Shooting decided to help me spend more money I didn't have. So after feverishly reading books on Benchrest accuracy and started learning the arts of Precision Reloading (I'm still learning and testing), along comes my next VICE in the form of Rimfire. And then along came ANNIE. Figured it would be fun, but never even considered that an Anschutz could do what they do. Needless to say, didn't know any better so I bought a 64 MPR, mostly because these fine rifles are almost extinct where I live. So I started shooting her and testing and like WOW did she shoot something fantastic. Added a Harrel Tuner that helped a bit and I actually started winning some local competitions, beating out some very finely built custom jobs. I was equally getting my tailpipes kicked by some with super custom jobs, but with help from some friends with experience and Steve Boelter up in Las Vegas, got settled in and am having a blast. Thats why you might have noted I have a great deal of respect for Steve B and your Gunsmith, Butch who has worked with Steve in the past and whose name appears on some of the top Gunsmith lists in the country. BTW, a curious thing I learned along the way was that just because a Gunsmith with vast experience and knowledge in Centerfire rifles. it doesn;'t necessarily follow that they know Rimfires equally as well. Strange but true because I have a few Savages Rimfires as well and there just aren't alot of folks around who know how to work on the infamous "Accutrigger" mechanism. But thats another story for another day. But I still wish I had the instant access to Butch if for no other reason than to bounch ideas and questions off him like I do Steve, who is gracious enough to take the time to answer them. BTW, I did buy a Stith stock for my 64 MPR, but never finished it or put it on for fear I'd alter the shooting performance of my 64. I decided to leave well enough alone, but did add the Leupold 35X Competition scope atop her which helps these old eyes see alot better. And on that Lapua ammo, you might consider getting a box of the Midas+. Best price around is over at Champion Shooters Supply where I usually buy a brick or two or three depending on how much money the wife is kind enough to toss my way. Enjoy!

 

[dksac2]

I think the best bang for the buck ammo wise is the Wolf MT, sort by rim thickness and weigh it and you will get rid of most of the fliers and the groups will get better also, not really worth doing on the higher priced ammo, but it works wonders with the Wolf. Maybe not for good comp meets, but for general shooting and practice, I find it hard to beat for the price.

If you need a great smith for your Savage, www.savagegunsmithing.com, the smith Scott Null is the best Savage man around, RF or CF, he makes the Accu trigger wonderful (at least as good as it can get), great guy to work with.
He is in on Savages round tables with the CEO, engineers, designers, production mgrs etc and he accurizes Savage rifles for their CEO, the guy knows his stuff. He is one who is excellent with the Savage Rimfire's.

My Best, John

 

[Chuck51840]

Can we see some pics of the set up/ targets? Thanks, Chuck

 

[Chris a]

One last thing, make sure the rifle is aimed right at the bullseye, if you have to push it in any direction to get it on, you will have a flier. And follow through, give time for the bullet to exit the bore. Hold for at least a couple seconds after the shot is fired, it's more than is necessary, but gets you in the habit.
Also make sure the rifle is level every time, if tilted, it will throw the shot.

Aim small, shoot small.

My best, John K