urbanrifleman
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22/204 Test loads
- Thread starter AckleymanII
- Start date
urbanrifleman
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I get 3850 with a 50 tnt in my 223a. With 26.7 grains of lt32.
That is better than most 22-250 loads and I don't eat up the barrel.
sqrlgtr
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Impressive and feeds well also appreciate AcklymanII for posting this and our PM conversations as well.
Well done Sir
Ackman
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That .204 case is a good looking thing and has all kinds of wildcat potential. The 22-204 isn't really an "exercise" any more and sure isn't a "dumb idea." Got my reamer in the middle of '98 and at the time was told that Ruger had reamers done for this and a few different chamberings on the 204 case. I'm very much a 223AI fan but like that .204-based round will feed perfectly without having to tweak the action, as mine was. And get more accurate velocity (even if it's not a huge amount) as a bonus.
Of course you can use a bigger case, duh. But what's important is where on the velocity scale is it most accurate. My first 22-250 was a Rem. Varmint in the 80's. Accuracy load for that gun was W760 and a 55 SierraBTHP at 3650, should've tried RL15 but didn't. Currently a cheap gunshow Savage 22-250 sporter shoots 50's best with 37.5 / RL15 doing 3926....pretty much top end for that cartridge and my guess would be most people aren't shooting them that fast. It's all about where the accuracy is.
If a "dumb idea" like the 22-204 can be - accurately - way up into 22-250 territory at it's best, and do it with 10gr. less powder, it's not a "dumb idea."
Edit: Wasn't until middle of '07 I got my reamer.
Of course you can use a bigger case, duh. But what's important is where on the velocity scale is it most accurate. My first 22-250 was a Rem. Varmint in the 80's. Accuracy load for that gun was W760 and a 55 SierraBTHP at 3650, should've tried RL15 but didn't. Currently a cheap gunshow Savage 22-250 sporter shoots 50's best with 37.5 / RL15 doing 3926....pretty much top end for that cartridge and my guess would be most people aren't shooting them that fast. It's all about where the accuracy is.
If a "dumb idea" like the 22-204 can be - accurately - way up into 22-250 territory at it's best, and do it with 10gr. less powder, it's not a "dumb idea."
Edit: Wasn't until middle of '07 I got my reamer.
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Congratulations; you have just reinvented the 222 Remington Magnum...
There are two ways to get high velocity out of a cartridge:
1. Big case full of powder
2. Smaller case full of powder at higher pressures.
The laws of Physics are not flexible.
I have a good friend who has been building custom actions for about 40 years now. When he lived in Texas he hunted whitetails with a 308 Winchester bolt rifle. He told me bolt lift was a little stiff, but still one finger lift with the loads he had worked up. Primers were flat, but not cratered. We are at SHOT Show the next spring, talking to a mutual friend at Winchester. He mentions the load, and the Winchester rep gets a little bugeyed. He asks my friend to send him ten rounds. A couple weeks later I get a call from my friend. He tells me Winchester pressure tested his reloads and got readings over 80,000Psi MAP average. Brass becomes a plasticus about that time.
I would really love to have you pressure test your loads and tell us what the pressures are.
I will cite you one example, which correlates closely with your velocities. The 6 PPC develops pressures in the 75,00 to close to 80,000 range. The reason the rifles do not blow up is the fairly small case head, and the quality of the actions used.
No offense, but I am glad I will never be within 50 yards of you shooting.
Rich
1. Big case full of powder
2. Smaller case full of powder at higher pressures.
The laws of Physics are not flexible.
I have a good friend who has been building custom actions for about 40 years now. When he lived in Texas he hunted whitetails with a 308 Winchester bolt rifle. He told me bolt lift was a little stiff, but still one finger lift with the loads he had worked up. Primers were flat, but not cratered. We are at SHOT Show the next spring, talking to a mutual friend at Winchester. He mentions the load, and the Winchester rep gets a little bugeyed. He asks my friend to send him ten rounds. A couple weeks later I get a call from my friend. He tells me Winchester pressure tested his reloads and got readings over 80,000Psi MAP average. Brass becomes a plasticus about that time.
I would really love to have you pressure test your loads and tell us what the pressures are.
I will cite you one example, which correlates closely with your velocities. The 6 PPC develops pressures in the 75,00 to close to 80,000 range. The reason the rifles do not blow up is the fairly small case head, and the quality of the actions used.
No offense, but I am glad I will never be within 50 yards of you shooting.
Rich
urbanrifleman
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urbanrifleman
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Annndddd a guy just posted that.
GAnderson
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The cartridge base to shoulder on the 204 case is longer than the 222 Magnum...this has been pointed out already in this thread...don't understand why so many keep saying that it is just a 222 Magnum...it is NOT.
Ackman
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Yeah, these guys are out there.
AckleymanII
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Remember that the loads that I posted were safe in my gun, I never any implied that they would be safe in anyone else's gun.
Praise God for Remington 700's and their fabulous strength in a bolt head that is rated at 150,000 PSI. I have had 35 years of shooting tremendous wild cat cases, never any problems.
I have the intentions of posting groups of the accuracy loads with various bullets and powders. Best accuracy loads are rarely found where you are blowing primers(Breaking a good 2 oz trigger), or extremely hard to lift bolts.
Most are Shocked beyond belief at the velocity and extremes of accuracy of the 223 AI, a case that is well worth investing in if you have not already. Overcoming the feeding issues of the AI is what I am attempting to do with the 22-204, knowing full well that the feeding issues of the AI can be solved with detachable bottom metal and mags. I hate a magazine hanging out the bottom of my rifle for hunting purposes.
Take Heed, not all custom and factory actions are as strong as Remington 700's.
Praise God for Remington 700's and their fabulous strength in a bolt head that is rated at 150,000 PSI. I have had 35 years of shooting tremendous wild cat cases, never any problems.
I have the intentions of posting groups of the accuracy loads with various bullets and powders. Best accuracy loads are rarely found where you are blowing primers(Breaking a good 2 oz trigger), or extremely hard to lift bolts.
Most are Shocked beyond belief at the velocity and extremes of accuracy of the 223 AI, a case that is well worth investing in if you have not already. Overcoming the feeding issues of the AI is what I am attempting to do with the 22-204, knowing full well that the feeding issues of the AI can be solved with detachable bottom metal and mags. I hate a magazine hanging out the bottom of my rifle for hunting purposes.
Take Heed, not all custom and factory actions are as strong as Remington 700's.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
We've both shot the .223AI a lot and know it's a very good one. Don't know if IMI or LC brass is the equalizer, but I think the .204 case is a real good way to go.
Where is SAAMI when you need them? It makes stories like this possible since none of you have pressure testing equipment. Sadly, I went to Ken Oehler's Chronograph Pressure testing school many years ago. I still have my M43 which caused me to throttle back on such claims as this one.
Reality: that which does not change no matter how much we wish it to. These numbers sound better when you do not pressure test them. Which none of you will do.
Reality: that which does not change no matter how much we wish it to. These numbers sound better when you do not pressure test them. Which none of you will do.
Again, not to be contentious; but some of you may know that I wrote (and got paid for) every article I wrote for Precision Shooting Magazine, and others I did articles for. Some of you own copies of those magazines from 1988 to 2000.
A lot of those articles relating to velocity and accuracy on wildcats, showed targets, and the tapes from my Oehler chronographs of those groups/velocities.
I would appreciate it, as would the general membership here; if you would post pictures of those targets and the Oehler Chronograph tapes showing those velocities for us to admire.
A lot of those articles relating to velocity and accuracy on wildcats, showed targets, and the tapes from my Oehler chronographs of those groups/velocities.
I would appreciate it, as would the general membership here; if you would post pictures of those targets and the Oehler Chronograph tapes showing those velocities for us to admire.
They are WILDCATS, not PUSSYCATS venture here at your own risk. Some prefer to live a little on the wild side and not have the government dictate even how much or what kind powder we put in a case and are willing to live with the consequences. It's called experimenting, imagine where we would be if we didn't. All sitting in Europe because if we went to far in the ocean we'd fall off the edge.
You want to hear something scary, it usually starts "We're from the government"
Maybe you could start a new Thread "Government approved load data"
You want to hear something scary, it usually starts "We're from the government"
Maybe you could start a new Thread "Government approved load data"
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
And to really get a few people riled up. Here's one I hadn't planned to post. This was a new factory takeoff .223 Rem. Varmint stainless, bought at the gunshow for $75 from a guy who sold all the new takeoff stuff from Christianson Arms. Put together with stuff I had sitting around - 722 action/trigger, old Rem. classic stock, unbedded. It definitely was a new takeoff, but very much an anomaly.......50's and 55's seat almost to base of the neck which means 0 freebore. Shoots well and is very fast. Loves Ballistic Tips (4 shot groups), doesn't like TNTs at all. IMI brass, no signs whatsoever of overpressure.
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GAnderson
Gold $$ Contributor
I am not trying to be argumentative but...just taking a SAAMI case(204R...last time I checked it was a saami cartridge) and simply necking it up to .22 caliber doesn't automatically make it "unsafe" and completely out of the realm of SAAMI specs...show us where SAAMI says so...other than the neck diameter, the cartridge hasn't changed from its original dimensions. What about a 22-250 going up to 6mm or down to .20cal...what about a .223 cartridge and taking it up to 6mm or down to .20cal...what about a BR case going from 6mmBR to 20BR or 22BR??? The parent case has not changed...just the neck diameter and hence the bore diameter that the cartridge will now be fired in. Having said this, changing the bore size can impact both positively and negatively the pressures, which takes us to the next step.
The next part of SAAMI is "safe working pressures" in ammunition. In all cases, only so much powder can be put into the casing...it's the choices of powders and the amount of powder that could lead to "over" pressure and become "dangerous" or not...again, simply changing neck diameter does not in of itself make it "dangerous"...it's being aware of and following safe load practices that can either make it safe or dangerous. Having the knowledge of whether to use a slow, medium or fast burning powder as well as what charge weight to start out with and work up slowly is where we need to be careful...we do this every time we RELOAD our ammunition...SAAMI cannot govern our individual knowledge or reloading practices. That is why we rely on reloading manuals or data to try to keep things safe, but often times what is in print can be wrong too!! We all know that reduced or very low charge weights can also create some very "dangerous" situations. With wildcat cartridges we just have to keep things in perspective and really look at the powder options/weights/bullet weights and proceed with the utmost of caution...as has been demonstrated by the original poster relative to the 22-204. Show us one thing that was dangerous in his load work up...if you are simply wanting to dispute the velocities cited here, then that is fine, but going the SAAMI route to try to discredit the provided information doesn't seem too reliable...as proven by this next information about SAAMI...How often is SAAMI updated? With the advancement in barrel and action metals/material and advancements in powders today, it could be said that SAAMI might be outdated...for instance, the 45 Long Colt cartridge is still listed at 14,000CUP according to SAAMI. This quote is taken directly from SAAMI - "45 Colt uses . 454" diameter bullets and standard large pistol primers. The SAAMI maximum average pressure is pegged at 14,000 psi.".
In looking at various reloading data available by various powder manufacturers today, you can now get loads of 30,000+CUP for the 45 Long Colt. SAAMI has its place but is not the end all when it comes to RELOADING and 99.9% of us have not/do not/ and will not own pressure testing equipment...SAAMI is a reference standard and serves its purpose and should not be taken for granted...it is only part of the "reloading" equation though.
The next part of SAAMI is "safe working pressures" in ammunition. In all cases, only so much powder can be put into the casing...it's the choices of powders and the amount of powder that could lead to "over" pressure and become "dangerous" or not...again, simply changing neck diameter does not in of itself make it "dangerous"...it's being aware of and following safe load practices that can either make it safe or dangerous. Having the knowledge of whether to use a slow, medium or fast burning powder as well as what charge weight to start out with and work up slowly is where we need to be careful...we do this every time we RELOAD our ammunition...SAAMI cannot govern our individual knowledge or reloading practices. That is why we rely on reloading manuals or data to try to keep things safe, but often times what is in print can be wrong too!! We all know that reduced or very low charge weights can also create some very "dangerous" situations. With wildcat cartridges we just have to keep things in perspective and really look at the powder options/weights/bullet weights and proceed with the utmost of caution...as has been demonstrated by the original poster relative to the 22-204. Show us one thing that was dangerous in his load work up...if you are simply wanting to dispute the velocities cited here, then that is fine, but going the SAAMI route to try to discredit the provided information doesn't seem too reliable...as proven by this next information about SAAMI...How often is SAAMI updated? With the advancement in barrel and action metals/material and advancements in powders today, it could be said that SAAMI might be outdated...for instance, the 45 Long Colt cartridge is still listed at 14,000CUP according to SAAMI. This quote is taken directly from SAAMI - "45 Colt uses . 454" diameter bullets and standard large pistol primers. The SAAMI maximum average pressure is pegged at 14,000 psi.".
In looking at various reloading data available by various powder manufacturers today, you can now get loads of 30,000+CUP for the 45 Long Colt. SAAMI has its place but is not the end all when it comes to RELOADING and 99.9% of us have not/do not/ and will not own pressure testing equipment...SAAMI is a reference standard and serves its purpose and should not be taken for granted...it is only part of the "reloading" equation though.
Please accept my apologies. The tapes and targets DO support your claims. I am still thinking the pressures are high, based on case capacity. But, If it works for you, ROCK ON!
@AckleymanII
What are your Cartridge lengths?
Ive got a mini mauser that needs some coolness thrown its way.
What are your Cartridge lengths?
Ive got a mini mauser that needs some coolness thrown its way.
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