21st Century Bullet seater press

[JamesnTN]

I can see a difference on paper with only .0005 difference in neck tension

 

[Patch700]

I can see a difference on paper with only .0005 difference in neck tension

Absolutely , no argument there from me... But here's something to ponder , do you think you'd notice a difference on paper if you were at .004" tension and you changed it to .010" ? I'm not convinced the grip would change and that's what makes a difference on paper I feel.

My point being that when using these gauges how relevant are they to actual grip after the initial force to overcome seating has been applied.

 

[Steve Wilson]

Ben, you mentioned a light lube between your fingers; what kind of lube?

Here is how I use my Hydro Press. Brass annealed after every firing. One stroke with a blue Iosso brush inside the dirty neck, followed by Redding powdered graphite on a Q Tip for lube. My necks are no turn and seating pressure runs right at 20 PSI on both my 6BR and 6 Dasher. When I load 100 rounds for a match, the range of pressure will 19 to 21 for the majority. There always seem to be a couple of oddballs that come in at 18 or 22, those go in the fouler row. All 40 rounds shot for record will be the exact same reading, usually 20 PSI. The rest will be organized to 1 PSI readings. You WILL see elevation changes at 600 yards between say 20 and 40 PSI.

Hope this provides some usefull information.

 

[BenPerfected]

Ben, you mentioned a light lube between your fingers; what kind of lube?

Here is how I use my Hydro Press. Brass annealed after every firing. One stroke with a blue Iosso brush inside the dirty neck, followed by Redding powdered graphite on a Q Tip for lube. My necks are no turn and seating pressure runs right at 20 PSI on both my 6BR and 6 Dasher. When I load 100 rounds for a match, the range of pressure will 19 to 21 for the majority. There always seem to be a couple of oddballs that come in at 18 or 22, those go in the fouler row. All 40 rounds shot for record will be the exact same reading, usually 20 PSI. The rest will be organized to 1 PSI readings. You WILL see elevation changes at 600 yards between say 20 and 40 PSI.

Hope this provides some usefull information.

Steve,
Thanks for your feedback. For lube I have been rubbing my finger on the RCBS lube pad. I started with the graphite powder but couldn't seem to keep it from getting all over me and the bench. I am now thinking that my seating process with the press might need to change. I have been trying to measure the PSI and also 100% seat the bullet in the same stroke. Are you taking the PSI reading just prior to the bullet being 100% seated? Maybe I just need more practice :-\

 

[fguffey]

Before the 21 Century seating tool a reloader could determine the effort required to seat a bullet.

Not true,

That makes no sense, a reloader could determine the amount of effort to seat a bullet from the beginning with a bath room scale and seating dies that were operated by the heel of the hand. Then there were strain/force gages without a $175.00 press.

My force gages are self contained.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Currently there is no tool available to measure neck tension.

I understand interference fit, I understand crush fit. There are not many tools I do not have. The one thing I do not have and can not find is a conversion for tensions to pounds.

Tools are available for measuring crush fit and interference fit, before the Internet the bullet was held by the neck with bullet hold. Bullet hold was measured in pounds. Then the Internet, the reinvention of reloading. Tension was such a catchy word it stuck. Problem, at the time no one had thought of measuring tensions as in 15 tensions or 40 tensions and no one had a clue how to convert tensions to pounds.

F. Guffey

 

[jsthntn247]

I tested my press out not long ago. Had 20 pieces of brass all turned to within .0002 with the same amount of firings on each case. The same prep was done to the brass and loaded with the same powder charge in each case measured to the kernel. All brass was ran up on a mandrel prior to seating. The only thing different was the type of lube put in the necks. Seating force ranged from 12-35lbs based on the type of lube in the neck. Each group of 5 with same type of lube remained very consistent with each other (within 3lbs force) but groups on paper ranged from 3/4 moa to one ragged hole. The group that shot best was the one in the 12-15lb seating "force" range and had the lowest ES. I tested this after doing normal powder and seating depth test. I'm convinced that the press works and helps too see miniscule changes in loading procedure that can have large effects at distance.

 

[fguffey]

reducing bullet hold? I want all the bullet hold I can get. Then there is lubing the case neck. I have seating dies that seat bullets, there was not a lot of thought that went into the design, but they do seat bullets. I have dies that do not require a lot of effort when seating bullets. By design the difference is in the way the bullet centers in the case mouth and the way the case mouth is prepped.

I made a seater for .250 anything, it does not have a die body, when seating bullets it requires little to no effort.

F. Guffey

 

[Steve Wilson]

Ben,
I use slow and steady pressure on the handle through the entire seating process. You can feel the boattail slip into the neck at around 10 PSI, in my case. Then it requires more force on the handle to seat it. Keep increasing pressure gradually and watch the needle climb. It reaches a certain point and then you can see the seater die start moving down again. With your eyes shifting between the seater die and the needle, you will notice that the PSI will remain steady once the actual seating process begins. I go slow.

It's sort of a co-ordination thing to dance your eyes between the die and the needle as you apply pressure to the handle. After awhile you get a feel for the whole thing and don't pay much attention to the gap in the die. Instead, you develop a sense in your hand as you are pushing down on the handle and watching the needle. Gauge comes up to 10 PSI (or whatever number you get), handle drops down a bit...there, the boattail just went in. Pressure steadily rises on the needle, then at some point on the gauge you feel the bullet smoothly seat as you keep lowering the handle. Like I said, it's a sort of co-ordinated thing. Try going slower, I think you will see what I'm talking about.

Also, round up some fatter Q Tips from Sinclair. The Wallgreen's ones work too but fit looser in a 6 BR neck. Dip the Q Tip in the graphite powder, tap it on the jar to knock off the excess and then lube 3 to 5 necks. Dip again and repeat. A used Q Tip fuzzes up some and works better than a brand new one. You will get a few crumbs on your fingers, the shoulders and the loading block. Can't avoid making some little bit of a mess, but the graphite works wonders in uniforming the required seating force. I graphite all of the necks before I put the powder in.

Go slower, try the graphite again and let me know if you see improvement. Those Hydro Presses are the slickest things going but it takes a little time to develop a sense for the process.

 

[fguffey]

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21st Century Bullet seater press

« Reply #19 on: 09:39 PM, 02/12/15 »






Quote
A question for those that use this press...

If you size a case .002 down from loaded dimension it's relatively safe to say you have .002" "Neck tension" .

No, it would be safe to say you have discovered interference fit or crush fir.

F. Guffey

 

[BenPerfected]

Ben,
I use slow and steady pressure on the handle through the entire seating process. You can feel the boattail slip into the neck at around 10 PSI, in my case. Then it requires more force on the handle to seat it. Keep increasing pressure gradually and watch the needle climb. It reaches a certain point and then you can see the seater die start moving down again. With your eyes shifting between the seater die and the needle, you will notice that the PSI will remain steady once the actual seating process begins. I go slow.

It's sort of a co-ordination thing to dance your eyes between the die and the needle as you apply pressure to the handle. After awhile you get a feel for the whole thing and don't pay much attention to the gap in the die. Instead, you develop a sense in your hand as you are pushing down on the handle and watching the needle. Gauge comes up to 10 PSI (or whatever number you get), handle drops down a bit...there, the boattail just went in. Pressure steadily rises on the needle, then at some point on the gauge you feel the bullet smoothly seat as you keep lowering the handle. Like I said, it's a sort of co-ordinated thing. Try going slower, I think you will see what I'm talking about.

Also, round up some fatter Q Tips from Sinclair. The Wallgreen's ones work too but fit looser in a 6 BR neck. Dip the Q Tip in the graphite powder, tap it on the jar to knock off the excess and then lube 3 to 5 necks. Dip again and repeat. A used Q Tip fuzzes up some and works better than a brand new one. You will get a few crumbs on your fingers, the shoulders and the loading block. Can't avoid making some little bit of a mess, but the graphite works wonders in uniforming the required seating force. I graphite all of the necks before I put the powder in.

Go slower, try the graphite again and let me know if you see improvement. Those Hydro Presses are the slickest things going but it takes a little time to develop a sense for the process.

Thanks for the tips Steve. I will try this this process today.
Ben

 

[mikecr]

if you were to take a case that had an ID of .243" and ran it up onto a .264" mandrel that there would be .021" of tension gripping that mandrel?

NO..
All you had was 21thou interference.
Your tension is no more than provided by spring back of your now sized brass against the 264 mandrel,, which is ~.5-2thou.

This isn't complicated folks.
Where you increase seating friction, including sizing necks with bullets, you increase seating forces only -nothing to do with tension.
Tension is thickness of brass hardness springing back to grip bullets.
So variance in tension is variance in hardness and/or thickness of it.

You cannot even pretend tension correlates with seating forces without very carefully controlling thickness and seating friction, and you won't get there without at least understanding these terms.

 

[Joe Salt]

MiKecr So do I call it seating force, because if I forget to put Moly on the inside of my necks like I always do, I'm going to have more seating force! And that doesn't mean more tension on the bullet. Am I on the same page as you?

joe Salt

 

[Patch700]

if you were to take a case that had an ID of .243" and ran it up onto a .264" mandrel that there would be .021" of tension gripping that mandrel?

NO..
All you had was 21thou interference.
Your tension is no more than provided by spring back of your now sized brass against the 264 mandrel,, which is ~.5-2thou.

This isn't complicated folks.
Where you increase seating friction, including sizing necks with bullets, you increase seating forces only -nothing to do with tension.
Tension is thickness of brass hardness springing back to grip bullets.
So variance in tension is variance in hardness and/or thickness of it.

You cannot even pretend tension correlates with seating forces without very carefully controlling thickness and seating friction, and you won't get there without at least understanding these terms.

Precisely... hence why I formed that statement in the form of a question. ... I don't believe in that instance that the amount would be equal to grip.

 

[CatShooter]

As a group, we tend to latch onto words that have no meaning or are misleading.

Tension is one of them, you cannot have 2 thou of "tension"... one is a liner measurement, and the other is force, and they do not relate or convert.

"Node" is another - it means nothing in shooting or loading. Primers, powders, and bullets, do not have "nodes".

No wonder we can't communicate our ideas and efforts.

 

[fguffey]

No wonder we can't communicate our ideas and efforts.

You called Ed, were you concerned for him or were you looking for help. I assumed the monitors made an attempt to get his attention.

Tension is one of them, you cannot have 2 thou of "tension"... one is a liner measurement, and the other is force, and they do not relate or convert.

It is possible to have crush fit and or an interference fit. I have asked for years if someone had a conversions for tensions to pounds, all I accomplished was cause those that have no clue to gravitate into groups like those found in elementary schools.

F. Guffey

 

[Joe Salt]

Guffey what do you call or meen by crush fit? Into the powder charge!

Joe Salt

 

[mikecr]

Guffey, you gotta know that 'conversions', often associated with 'shortcuts', don't work in ballistics.
We can't convert culver clicks to grains.
We can't convert brass weight to capacity.
We can't convert speed of sound in metal to tuning predictions.
We never know more than we actually measure.

Seating force(seating friction) is a matter we can measure.
Currently we have no tool for measuring hoop tension provided by our particular necks.
There is no conversion to speak of.