2012 F-Class National Championships now only a 1000 yard match
- Thread starter ohearchai
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falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
Yeah..It get it....like it or lump it :
farmerjohn
Gold $$ Contributor
HEY FALCONPILOT, YOU COULD GET UP OFF THE GROUND AND SHOOT OFF A BENCH AND YOU WOULD NOT HAVE THESE PROBLEMS, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE TO PULL TARGETS hee,hee,heee
falconpilot
Gold $$ Contributor
For a Farmer, I'd think that you not be afraid of the dirt, and gettign dirty ;D
No problems really, just a spirited discussion...if we always had our way, that means someone else would stay pi@*^d off all the time..that wouldn't be fair would it? ;D
No problems really, just a spirited discussion...if we always had our way, that means someone else would stay pi@*^d off all the time..that wouldn't be fair would it? ;D
memilanuk said:
If you shoot Highpower XTC, you prob know the reason that was done.
FroggyOne2 said:
I had been shooting XTC at the time and thought that it was for us older guys and those who couldn't get their a$$ on the ground in a minute let alone get off 10 rounds with a mag change.......wasn't that the reason?
Nodak7mm
Team Lefse
Is it possible that we will see a growth in 1K sanctioned shooting then? What effect will this have on the mid-range (600yd) folks/ranges? Will we see a division & separate classes like LRBR or life goes on as is?
Interesting road ahead, especially considering the growth that F-class has experienced in the past several yrs in the states....
Comments?
Rod
Interesting road ahead, especially considering the growth that F-class has experienced in the past several yrs in the states....
Comments?
Rod
In 2006, the last of three years of provisional F Class National Championships was held in Sacaramento. That year we used the Palma course of fire. I suggested that we should shoot everything at 1,000 yds. because it was a National Championship and let's face it, most matches are decided at the 1,000 yd. line. I was jumped on by the mid range shooters because they said they didn't have access to 1,000 yd. ranges to practice. It was decided then that a portion of the Nationals would include a 600 yd. day. I personally don't have a problem with the entire match being shot at 1,000 yds. My concern is the way it was put into the rule book.
The High Power commitee didn't do this out of the blue. It had to be put forth by an F Class Shooter. Who was he or them and who gave them the almighty power to do it in secret? Yes in secret. Every shooting organization has rules and ways to change them. I'd like to believe that this was done to enhance our championship and not done to enhance the chances of a few long range shooters. The way this was done just smells dirty, and when it smells dirty, it usually is.
Someone from the NRA or F Class commitee, if there is one, should try to explain how and why this was done so secretly and why no one in the Mid range group was consulted. The Mid range shooters have basically been excluded from the Nationals now. Their NRA classification doesn't mean squat now for the Nationals.
Unlike our government anymore, the NRA is our shooting organization and we as members must have a say in how our shooting disciplines are being run.
Bob Pastor
The High Power commitee didn't do this out of the blue. It had to be put forth by an F Class Shooter. Who was he or them and who gave them the almighty power to do it in secret? Yes in secret. Every shooting organization has rules and ways to change them. I'd like to believe that this was done to enhance our championship and not done to enhance the chances of a few long range shooters. The way this was done just smells dirty, and when it smells dirty, it usually is.
Someone from the NRA or F Class commitee, if there is one, should try to explain how and why this was done so secretly and why no one in the Mid range group was consulted. The Mid range shooters have basically been excluded from the Nationals now. Their NRA classification doesn't mean squat now for the Nationals.
Unlike our government anymore, the NRA is our shooting organization and we as members must have a say in how our shooting disciplines are being run.
Bob Pastor
I'm going to put my two cents in on this one despite shooting very little F class but shooting ALOT of NRA prone and XTC. So with that being said please take this as an outsider looking in.
History as I saw it:
When Fclass came sliding into our Prone Long range matches back in the 90's I heard alot of grumbling from the more traditional shooters on how it was going to be a pain the butt to squad and score these bench rest guys ( Fclass)... after a few matches that summer and more and more Fclass shooters showing up bringing intrest into the sport I started to see a change in attitude as the Fclass guys started to be members of the club and help out with matches and range duties. At that time us prone shooters where allowed to get a LONG RANGE classification card at 600 yard prone matches I saw some High Master prone shooters shoot 1000 yards who where down right horrible, because they shot only at 600 yards and only once in a while at 1000 yards.
Not sure of the year but A rule was made to the effect that 300,500 and 600 yards are Mid range. NOT long range which is now 800,900 and 1000 yards. New classification cards for Midrange where now issued to the prone shooters. You would think the world was ending the way everyone was complaining, soon it became excepted, as new National records where set and alot more regionals and State championships started to pop up for mid range and of course we kept our Long range State and regionals... so now we have BOTH and a chance to win a regional and MORE shooting than we ever had.
More chances to shoot and win a major trophy.... What is wrong with that?
So the way I see it, Fclass is going to follow the NRA prone sling shooters in same process. Makes sense to me as we shoot shoulder to shoulder in State and Regional and local Approved matches. Maybe some one or a group of people in visioned the F Class nationals shot At Camp Perry shoulder to shoulder with us Sling shooters increasing the venue.?????
Being that I have run some of the largest Midrange prone Championships in the MidSouth in years past ( Fclass and sling) There are a couple of things that bothered me. There is no Fclass Mid Range regional Course of fire. Youall just shoot what I set up for sling shooters which is spelled out in the rule book for sling shooters. In my mind it needs to be the same as us so WE can continue to shoot together and earn the same type of rewards.
If WE are going to continue to shoot together shoulder to shoulder I would like to see us have the same course of fire and same classification rules. The Nationals might not be held together ever but who knows.
Falcon Pilot.... brother... Friend.... You are missing out on a National Record without a separate Mid Range and long Range Regional or National course of fire.
I like the change and hope that it follows suite with the sling shooters so we can all be one big happy family... Because I see some guys shooting both... Some change to sling and some sling shooters have changed over to Fclass. I think its healthy for both. Love the idea that some one new wants to come out and shoot with there Remington PSS to see if they like it. Next thing you know they are knee deep in gear and helping build target frames for the next big match.
In the end, 2012 will have a Fclass national Champion what ever the course of fire is.
Very very respectfuly
RussT
History as I saw it:
When Fclass came sliding into our Prone Long range matches back in the 90's I heard alot of grumbling from the more traditional shooters on how it was going to be a pain the butt to squad and score these bench rest guys ( Fclass)... after a few matches that summer and more and more Fclass shooters showing up bringing intrest into the sport I started to see a change in attitude as the Fclass guys started to be members of the club and help out with matches and range duties. At that time us prone shooters where allowed to get a LONG RANGE classification card at 600 yard prone matches I saw some High Master prone shooters shoot 1000 yards who where down right horrible, because they shot only at 600 yards and only once in a while at 1000 yards.
Not sure of the year but A rule was made to the effect that 300,500 and 600 yards are Mid range. NOT long range which is now 800,900 and 1000 yards. New classification cards for Midrange where now issued to the prone shooters. You would think the world was ending the way everyone was complaining, soon it became excepted, as new National records where set and alot more regionals and State championships started to pop up for mid range and of course we kept our Long range State and regionals... so now we have BOTH and a chance to win a regional and MORE shooting than we ever had.
More chances to shoot and win a major trophy.... What is wrong with that?
So the way I see it, Fclass is going to follow the NRA prone sling shooters in same process. Makes sense to me as we shoot shoulder to shoulder in State and Regional and local Approved matches. Maybe some one or a group of people in visioned the F Class nationals shot At Camp Perry shoulder to shoulder with us Sling shooters increasing the venue.?????
Being that I have run some of the largest Midrange prone Championships in the MidSouth in years past ( Fclass and sling) There are a couple of things that bothered me. There is no Fclass Mid Range regional Course of fire. Youall just shoot what I set up for sling shooters which is spelled out in the rule book for sling shooters. In my mind it needs to be the same as us so WE can continue to shoot together and earn the same type of rewards.
If WE are going to continue to shoot together shoulder to shoulder I would like to see us have the same course of fire and same classification rules. The Nationals might not be held together ever but who knows.
Falcon Pilot.... brother... Friend.... You are missing out on a National Record without a separate Mid Range and long Range Regional or National course of fire.
I like the change and hope that it follows suite with the sling shooters so we can all be one big happy family... Because I see some guys shooting both... Some change to sling and some sling shooters have changed over to Fclass. I think its healthy for both. Love the idea that some one new wants to come out and shoot with there Remington PSS to see if they like it. Next thing you know they are knee deep in gear and helping build target frames for the next big match.
In the end, 2012 will have a Fclass national Champion what ever the course of fire is.
Very very respectfuly
RussT
Nodak7mm said:
IMO, it will be hard to increase the number of long-range shooters across the Nation without increasing the number of 1000 yard ranges. I don't have real numbers, but I'm willing to bet it's about a 10 to 1 ratio of midrange compared to long, which means it’s difficult for most shooters to shoot long-range on a regular basis due to travel and lodging expenses and possibly the time factor. Of course there are those of us that will brave hell or high water in order to shoot, but I don’t think that’s enough to grow F-Class.
I have really enjoyed meeting and shooting with the large number of new competitors that have been coming into this sport the last few years. I sincerely hope that this change keeps them coming.
David Bailey
David
indeed we could use more 1000 yard ranges. I was shocked when I found out Texas had just a few places to shoot Long range and that a couple had been shut down over the last decade. You would think with ALL THAT LAND there would be more places to shoot and compete. Same for Oklahoma.
Do I really think there will be less shooters comming to shoot because the National Championship is now shot at 1000 yards and not 600 and 1000yds..... Not a chance.
I wish I could win the LOTTO i would travel across the US building rifle ranges where they are needed. Build it and they will come. ( i hope)
RussT
indeed we could use more 1000 yard ranges. I was shocked when I found out Texas had just a few places to shoot Long range and that a couple had been shut down over the last decade. You would think with ALL THAT LAND there would be more places to shoot and compete. Same for Oklahoma.
Do I really think there will be less shooters comming to shoot because the National Championship is now shot at 1000 yards and not 600 and 1000yds..... Not a chance.
I wish I could win the LOTTO i would travel across the US building rifle ranges where they are needed. Build it and they will come. ( i hope)
RussT
Rtheurer said:
Hey Russ,
I wondered if that was the ultimate aim of the change especially considering the F-Class team match being held at Camp Perry this year.
I don't really like the change. I like to shoot different yard lines and I don't buy the argument that 600 yards is too easy (even for the F Open crowd). It's not like everybody is cleaning their 600 yard targets
Seriously, one of my favorite match programs is SOA's 300/500/600 + 900 or 1000 every day. Now that's a challenge! It would have been nice if the change had been discussed with F class shooters prior to being implemented. Laura
My take on this is that for one, I don't like how it was just sprung on us F-Class shooters, with no attempt to see what overall opinion might be.
Another, I saw it stated that in some folks opinion, the 600 yard portion was "just a trigger pulling exercise". Well, perhaps it is *for them* though I didn't see the majority of scores as 600-60x for 3 strings of twenty, so I am guessing that perhaps one does have to do a bit more than just pull the trigger and sign the score card. I know I sure have to work to clean that 600 yard target (and it doesn't happen all that often for me), so maybe I'm not in the right sport? Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but it seems somewhat elitist: "anyone who isn't good at 1,000 yard shooting shouldn't be coming anyway, so screw 'em, make the course a mandatory 1,000".
Sure, the Nationals may be decided at the 1,000 yard line, if that's the case, then I guess the 600 yard phase better be perfect so one has a chance to win at the 1,000, no? So doesn't that make it important too? For that matter, there already is a Long Range Championships, and F-Class shooters aren't invited, so why not leave the F-Class Nationals alone, and let the hosting clubs pick the course of fire (there could be guidelines, like "X" number of shots must be from 1,000, or that the clubs have a choice of 600/1000, Palma, or straight 1,000 yard) and open Camp Perry to the dedicated F-Class Long Range Championships?
Just my two cents, and I'll just toddle back to the kiddie pool at the 600 yard line.
Eric
Another, I saw it stated that in some folks opinion, the 600 yard portion was "just a trigger pulling exercise". Well, perhaps it is *for them* though I didn't see the majority of scores as 600-60x for 3 strings of twenty, so I am guessing that perhaps one does have to do a bit more than just pull the trigger and sign the score card. I know I sure have to work to clean that 600 yard target (and it doesn't happen all that often for me), so maybe I'm not in the right sport? Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but it seems somewhat elitist: "anyone who isn't good at 1,000 yard shooting shouldn't be coming anyway, so screw 'em, make the course a mandatory 1,000".
Sure, the Nationals may be decided at the 1,000 yard line, if that's the case, then I guess the 600 yard phase better be perfect so one has a chance to win at the 1,000, no? So doesn't that make it important too? For that matter, there already is a Long Range Championships, and F-Class shooters aren't invited, so why not leave the F-Class Nationals alone, and let the hosting clubs pick the course of fire (there could be guidelines, like "X" number of shots must be from 1,000, or that the clubs have a choice of 600/1000, Palma, or straight 1,000 yard) and open Camp Perry to the dedicated F-Class Long Range Championships?
Just my two cents, and I'll just toddle back to the kiddie pool at the 600 yard line.
Eric
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm in the process of running the numbers from the last few nationals. I'm also interested in the "easy" claim. At this year's nationals, there were 183 strings fired at 600 yards by F/TR shooters. Amazingly, there were a total of 9 "cleans." Compared to last year's (2010) nationals, the number of "cleans" had almost doubled.
I'm going to drill down through the data next week and see if I can determine how easy 600 realy is compared to other yardages. My intent is to see if there is a good reason to get rid of this yardage, or if there is true value to it. Personally, mid-range is the only thing I can shoot without spending major money to go somewhere. I also believe that a different set of skills are needed to be successful at those ranges.
Please be patient, I will get the data together soon.
I'm going to drill down through the data next week and see if I can determine how easy 600 realy is compared to other yardages. My intent is to see if there is a good reason to get rid of this yardage, or if there is true value to it. Personally, mid-range is the only thing I can shoot without spending major money to go somewhere. I also believe that a different set of skills are needed to be successful at those ranges.
Please be patient, I will get the data together soon.
Hi Laura
I personally like one yard line so we don't have to Jockey cars and gear around all day.... well not all day but what pain in the butt nonthe less. That's just me though. I don't expect anyone else to agree with that.
I think if there was another option to 600 yards being removed, It might be the 800,900 1000 yard course of fire for long range and 300,500 and 600 for Mid Range.
In about 2007 they did away with the 3 600 yard matches at Camp Perry for the Long Range National Championship aggregate and changed it to two 1000 yard matches on day one. No more mid range for the Long range National championship after that.
Its funny... since they did that, its still the same National Champions winning.... does not matter the distance. John Widden, Kent Reeve, the super sweet Nancy Tompkins and Sherri and Michelle all seem to keep winning.
I do agree that a competitor meeting must be held and a proposal put up for the committee to discuss. If that did not happen then youall where blind sided. If it did... you all missed the meeting...
RussT
PS shoot some bullets for me this winter... See you this spring.
I personally like one yard line so we don't have to Jockey cars and gear around all day.... well not all day but what pain in the butt nonthe less. That's just me though. I don't expect anyone else to agree with that.
I think if there was another option to 600 yards being removed, It might be the 800,900 1000 yard course of fire for long range and 300,500 and 600 for Mid Range.
In about 2007 they did away with the 3 600 yard matches at Camp Perry for the Long Range National Championship aggregate and changed it to two 1000 yard matches on day one. No more mid range for the Long range National championship after that.
Its funny... since they did that, its still the same National Champions winning.... does not matter the distance. John Widden, Kent Reeve, the super sweet Nancy Tompkins and Sherri and Michelle all seem to keep winning.
I do agree that a competitor meeting must be held and a proposal put up for the committee to discuss. If that did not happen then youall where blind sided. If it did... you all missed the meeting...
RussT
PS shoot some bullets for me this winter... See you this spring.
Rtheurer said:
Look forward to seeing you back on the range instead of off taking scenic vacations
I suspect another reason the change to all 1000 yards was pushed through is so the F Open shooters only have to bring one gun. I suspect there were at least a few who didn't like having to have a mid-range gun and long-range (since many switched to the 7 RSAUM for 1000). At least in FTR we don't have that problem.
Laura
There is a pretty spirited dialogue over at http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=14234
on this topic.
Jeff
on this topic.
Jeff
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
In order to determine if 600 yards was "easy" and needed to be eliminated for that reason, I counted up the number of clean scores for each nationals from 2009-2011.
Scores will be described as: (number of cleans)/(total number of scores)
Note: Each competitor shoots 3 scores at 600 yards
2009:
F-Open - 20/264
F-TR - 1/165
2010:
F-Open - 19/228
F-TR - 5/108
2011:
F-Open - 44/264
F-TR - 9/183
Totals:
F-Open - 83/756 (10.9%)
F-TR - 15/456 (3.3%)
I also noted that only two shooters (both F-Open) shot 450/450 in 2011 at 600. I did not see any other 450's in prior years.
My opinion:
In order to determine if it is "easy" a threshold has to be set. I would have imagined before evaluating this data that 20% of F-open shooters should be pulling "cleans" and that leaves 80% of the shooters dropping points on every relay. That is far from what the data shows. In my mind, a notation of "easy" would have the top several scores decided by X-count because they were all perfect 450's.
Considering the great success that the US teams have had internationally, I can't imagine that the tops 20% don't shoot well, so I have to attribute the lower than expected scores to environmental variables. Those are the same variables that tend to suppress scores at 1000 yards.
Is 1000 harder than 600? Yes, the scores definately support that conclusion.
Is 600 easy enough to not be worth shooting? I'll leave that to each person to decide before this year's nationals and shooter's meeting.
BTW, you can both win and lose the championship by your scores at 600.
I hope the data is helpful.
Keith
Scores will be described as: (number of cleans)/(total number of scores)
Note: Each competitor shoots 3 scores at 600 yards
2009:
F-Open - 20/264
F-TR - 1/165
2010:
F-Open - 19/228
F-TR - 5/108
2011:
F-Open - 44/264
F-TR - 9/183
Totals:
F-Open - 83/756 (10.9%)
F-TR - 15/456 (3.3%)
I also noted that only two shooters (both F-Open) shot 450/450 in 2011 at 600. I did not see any other 450's in prior years.
My opinion:
In order to determine if it is "easy" a threshold has to be set. I would have imagined before evaluating this data that 20% of F-open shooters should be pulling "cleans" and that leaves 80% of the shooters dropping points on every relay. That is far from what the data shows. In my mind, a notation of "easy" would have the top several scores decided by X-count because they were all perfect 450's.
Considering the great success that the US teams have had internationally, I can't imagine that the tops 20% don't shoot well, so I have to attribute the lower than expected scores to environmental variables. Those are the same variables that tend to suppress scores at 1000 yards.
Is 1000 harder than 600? Yes, the scores definately support that conclusion.
Is 600 easy enough to not be worth shooting? I'll leave that to each person to decide before this year's nationals and shooter's meeting.
BTW, you can both win and lose the championship by your scores at 600.
I hope the data is helpful.
Keith
BTW, you can both win and lose the championship by your scores at 600.
And if you lose, you can just eliminate what you lose at.....then you are the winner!
And if you lose, you can just eliminate what you lose at.....then you are the winner!
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