200.20x. Why do you use them?

[markgrabowski]

Snowed in this morning, catching up on some threads...
Curious to hear from those shooters using the 200.20x why you chose that bullet. I know it’s a step up in bc from the 185 class, but I’ve noticed a fair number of folks just raving about the B215’s. Where does the 200.20 fit in the grand scheme of things?

p.s. I’m asking from the perspective of a prone/ftr user. I’ve read about benchrest folks shooting heavy 30’s at 1k.

 

[TrekUS]

Great question... I’m following. Btw, shooting Berger 168 Hybrid Target for PRS... if I went to the 200+ and single feed, would my current “chamber support”... or are these for hybrid chambers reamed longer?

 

[ShootDots]

Although I do not shoot F-T/R, I DO shoot F-Open. One of my rifles is a .300WSM that shoots the 200-20X bullets. At 2930 they are superbly accurate and for Mid-Range (500-600) they are near unbeatable! High B.C., pretty heavy for caliber and they do not have a long bearing surface, which lessens torque substantially.. They are an excellent bullet.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The Berger 200.20X Hybrid design is essentially the nose and boattail from the 215 Hybrid on a slightly shortened version of the original 200 Hybrid's bearing surface. It is an exceedingly good design...very well-balanced, with a high BC, and it's relatively easy to tune.

Not surprisingly given their similarities, the 215 Hybrid is also a very good design. It has a noticeably longer bearing surface than the 200.20X, a higher BC, and in theory requires a slightly faster twist rate for optimal stability. I have developed loads with both in an F-TR rifle that has a 10-twist barrel chambered with 0.180" freebore and they shoot equally well in my hands. Due to the increased weight and the reduction in effective case capacity because of the longer bearing surface, the 215s tuned in at approximately 100 fps slower velocity than the 200.20Xs with Varget (2650 fps vs 2550 fps, 30" barrel). Even with the lower velocity, the 215s may give slightly more recoil, warranting more attention to gun handling.

The reduction in wind deflection with the higher BC 215 Hybrid over the 200.20X is not as much as you might expect given the difference in BCs, due to the fact that it gives up ~100 fps velocity. Nonetheless, it is an improvement, however small it is predicted to be on paper. Because I was able to develop good loads with both bullets for the same rifle, a more important benefit is that if one or the other is bullet hard to find when my supply starts running low (which is not an uncommon occurrence), I can still use that rifle in matches with the other bullet.

 

[LVLAaron]

Berger spec sheet says the 200 hybrid bearing surface is less than the 20x.


Might be a mistake. I don’t have a way to measure it though.

 

[Boatschool02]

Berger spec sheet says the 200 hybrid bearing surface is less than the 20x.


Might be a mistake. I don’t have a way to measure it though.

Yeah. I wrote them about it but no change even though they say as much in their initial release document:

"Compared to the standard 200 grain Hybrid Target, the 200.20X has a longer boat tail, longer nose, and a shorter bearing surface."

Great bullet, BTW.

 

[skiutah02]

Just me, but because they are capable of this at 1000 yds:

 

[LVLAaron]

"Eight, one on." Got a laugh out of me on that one.

 

[XTR]

^^. What they said.

Most shooters who are competing in FTR have found that they are more precise shooting the 200 grain bullets than they are shooting the 215’s. Most of us have had a 215 load that was good, but week in and week out there would be the occasional unexplained elevation flyers in the 9 ring that most attribute to gun handling with the heavier recoil. As of yet nothing with a higher BC has proven to be as precise as the 200H and the 200-20x, and believe me when I tell you if it’s a 30cal it’s been tried.

 

[Oleg S]

200.20x. 600 yards

 

[markgrabowski]

The Berger 200.20X Hybrid design is essentially the nose and boattail from the 215 Hybrid on a slightly shortened version of the original 200 Hybrid's bearing surface. It is an exceedingly good design...very well-balanced, with a high BC, and it's relatively easy to tune.

Not surprisingly given their similarities, the 215 Hybrid is also a very good design. It has a noticeably longer bearing surface than the 200.20X, a higher BC, and in theory requires a slightly faster twist rate for optimal stability. I have developed loads with both in an F-TR rifle that has a 10-twist barrel chambered with 0.180" freebore and they shoot equally well in my hands. Due to the increased weight and the reduction in effective case capacity because of the longer bearing surface, the 215s tuned in at approximately 100 fps slower velocity than the 200.20Xs with Varget (2650 fps vs 2550 fps, 30" barrel). Even with the lower velocity, the 215s may give slightly more recoil, warranting more attention to gun handling.

The reduction in wind deflection with the higher BC 215 Hybrid over the 200.20X is not as much as you might expect given the difference in BCs, due to the fact that it gives up ~100 fps velocity. Nonetheless, it is an improvement, however small it is predicted to be on paper. Because I was able to develop good loads with both bullets for the same rifle, a more important benefit is that if one or the other is bullet hard to find when my supply starts running low (which is not an uncommon occurrence), I can still use that rifle in matches with the other bullet.

Ned, I wondered if the jump to a 215, real world results would pan out, in a 308, re: heavier recoil vs lower velocity vs bc.

 

[markgrabowski]

Great info everyone, thanks for the input!

 

[markgrabowski]

View attachment 1154128 200.20x. 600 yards

Nice target, Oleg!

 

[Oleg S]

Nice target, Oleg!

Thank you, Mark.
We have a few here in Fresno High Power Club.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ned, I wondered if the jump to a 215, real world results would pan out, in a 308, re: heavier recoil vs lower velocity vs bc.

I believe that totally depends on the shooter and the rifle setup. I know some very, very good F-TR shooters that haven't been totally satisfied shooting the 215s, whereas they had extremely consistent results with the 200.20X bullet. As XTR mentioned earlier in this thread, the issue with the 215s seems to be excessive and unexplained vertical. Whether that is due to recoil/gun handling, or some other issue entirely, is unclear. I have not personally noticed any vertical problems shooting the 215s as yet, but I've only been shooting them the last 6 months or so.

In my hands, the felt recoil seems to be about the same with the 215s at ~2550 fps, and the 200.20Xs at 2650 fps. The difference in predicted windage between the two bullets at those velocities is quite small, although not zero. I view the 215s as simply another combination that seems to work well in that particular rifle setup, about the same as the 200.20Xs. In other words, something else for me to spend $$$ on, although having two fairly equal bullets to choose from does mean they each last longer.

 

[markgrabowski]

Great thread, thanks for the feedback!

 

[BradY]

^^. What they said.

Most shooters who are competing in FTR have found that they are more precise shooting the 200 grain bullets than they are shooting the 215’s. Most of us have had a 215 load that was good, but week in and week out there would be the occasional unexplained elevation flyers in the 9 ring that most attribute to gun handling with the heavier recoil. As of yet nothing with a higher BC has proven to be as precise as the 200H and the 200-20x, and believe me when I tell you if it’s a 30cal it’s been tried.

Interesting, as precise as the 200h and 200-20x, would you care to elaborate? Is one of these better than the other?

 

[XTR]

I know a couple of shooters who tell me that they have never been able to get the 200-20x to shoot as small as the 200H. I personally didn't shoot the 200H long enough to have any data to compare them. If you are coaching shooters using both bullets there isn't any noticeable difference though the 20x has a slightly better G7.

There is increased recoil with the 215, that's just physics. The increase isn't much but the results on targets indicates that it matters. Many people have tried to get them to shoot in F-TR, and some have done really well with them, but over and over I've heard from good shooters who have shot them that there seems to be a trend of unexplained flyers that most attribute to the increased recoil resulting in points lost to managing the recoil. Success seems to require perfect manners on the gun, even the best of us don't always have that.

 

[BradY]

Thank you. I have good success with 200h but never tried the 20x.

 

[dave7mm]

I like the 20x.
dave