20 Vartarg problems help wanted

[rrwildlife]

All,

I have been fighting with my Vartarg for several months trying to run down a accuracy problem. The rifle is a Sako AI Varmint with the target trigger (16 ounces) and rebarreled with a 1/11 twist Pacnor (.235 neck with .035 freebore). I was hoping to shoot 40 grain bullets but it shows a preference for the 32 grain bullets. The problem I'm having is it shoots 3-4 bullets in one hole and the other one or two floating around like a satellite. I have shot some really small groups with it but most of the time it shoots two separate holes. The following targets are pretty typical.

I have tried 3 different scopes, a different stock, different firing pin, and a different trigger. I have experimented with the following powders and bullets: H-4198, H-322, LT-30, N-130, N-133, 40 gr V-max, 32 V-max, 32 Z-max, 32 Sierra, and 39 sierras. I have tried cci 400 primers, cci br-4 primers, and fed 205m. Cases are Laupa or Norma and all loads were tested from the jam to off .040 and seated with a Redding S-match seater and sized with a bushing neck die either .001 or .002 smaller than the loaded round diameter.

I'm at a loss. Any suggestions on what to try next would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[6BRAckley]

Looks like one of the loads shot a .079 5 shot group... that is insanely good. Why not shot 5 or 10 consecutive 5 shot groups with that load and see what the aggregate is. If a varmint rifle, without the the use of wind flags, will AVERAGE 1/2 in or smaller groups then it is a great shooting rifle.

I think one of the "problems" created by the internet shooting message boards is that people frequently announce that their rifle will shoot "x" or "y" CONSISTENTLY and of course provide zero proof... very likely b/c they couldn't. The occasional great 3 or 5 shot small group is good and the shooter should feel proud (just like that one really small group you shot), but one should not expect it to always shoot that well. I only mention this b/c I feel like some people measure their rifles performance against some illusory standard set by other shooters.

I have had great results myself with Fed 205 primers, 18.5 H4198 and 32 Hornady bullets. I use the same primer and 17.8 of H4198 with 40 Bergers.

JP

 

[Geeman]

Might want to give 35g Bergers a try too.

Greg

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Try some flat base HP bullets. Ive seen varmint rifles do this before. No matter what you did, they just wouldnt shoot a boat tail, shallow or long. Went to a flat base bullet and bang, there it was.

If your barrel is a 1 in 12" twist, I wouldnt even mess with the 40gr bullets. Ive been down that road and it aint worth it. The 39gr BK is max on a 12" twist. I would recommend an 11" twist for any of the 40's.

Ive got some 34gr flat base HP bullets i can send you if you want to test them? I'll send you 100 bullets, no charge, just PM me if interested.

 

[L.Sherm]

Try running a tight patch down your barrel and see if it is a 1-11tw. I have heard on rare occasion that a barrel is not the twist that it's stamped.

 

[rrwildlife]

Looks like one of the loads shot a .079 5 shot group... that is insanely good. Why not shot 5 or 10 consecutive 5 shot groups with that load and see what the aggregate is. If a varmint rifle, without the the use of wind flags, will AVERAGE 1/2 in or smaller groups then it is a great shooting rifle.

I think one of the "problems" created by the internet shooting message boards is that people frequently announce that their rifle will shoot "x" or "y" CONSISTENTLY and of course provide zero proof... very likely b/c they couldn't. The occasional great 3 or 5 shot small group is good and the shooter should feel proud (just like that one really small group you shot), but one should not expect it to always shoot that well. I only mention this b/c I feel like some people measure their rifles performance against some illusory standard set by other shooters.

I have had great results myself with Fed 205 primers, 18.5 H4198 and 32 Hornady bullets. I use the same primer and 17.8 of H4198 with 40 Bergers.

JP

JP,

I did exactly what you suggested after shooting the .079 group. I can't remember exactly but the average of 4 -5 shot groups with that load was in the 1/2"+ range. I agree, if you can get a varmint rifle to shoot 1/2" groups consistently you are doing well. Part of what gets me with this rifle is it act like it wants to shoot better than it aggs. The whole 4/1 - 3/2 group thing.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Ryan

 

[rrwildlife]

Try running a tight patch down your barrel and see if it is a 1-11tw. I have heard on rare occasion that a barrel is not the twist that it's stamped.

I'll check that out in the morning

 

[6BRAckley]

I remember having problems with a shots going out of the group when I was running the hotest loads in my 6ppc. Maybe trying to find a lower node will work. You might also want to try a slightly slower powder too (and sacrifice a little velocity) --- If my memory serves me right, I believe that cooper uses H335 for their accuracy test load in 20 vartargs they manufacture. I generally consider this a slow-for-cartridge powder but a case of it might yield some promise. Please keep us posted on what you find that works.

JP

 

[SS427]

Have you done a seating depth/powder charge test like described in the Tim Singleton thread? It is a load development method described in Tony Boyer's book.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3886764.0

Of the powders you have listed H4198 is the only one I have tried with my 20VT. You don't see many of those other powders you listed used to much extent if any. These are often mentioned if you have any: RL7 or AA2200

I would start with 18 grains of H4198 at 4 different seating depths - 3 rounds each. And another powder charge...seems like 18.5 is the other sweet spot a lot of people use - 3 rounds each. Have to shoot with flags or ribbons since the wind can impact those light bullets so much.

If you have already tried the method above, then give the 35 grain Bergers a try w/ H4198. After that I don't have any suggestions.

I had a Savage target action .223 shoot like that. 3 and 2 or 4 and 1. I finally gave up and sold the gun. Too bad really because I didn't know about the load development method described in Tony's book at that time. It might have come around with the right load and seating depth. But then again....

 

[L.Sherm]

What charge of H4198 were you using with the 32 grainers? do you have any RL7 or AA2200 to try?

 

[rrwildlife]

What charge of H4198 were you using with the 32 grainers? do you have any RL7 or AA2200 to try?

If I remember correctly I tested 17.5-19.2 of H-4198. I have some RL7, I shoot 18.7 gr in my 221 fireball.

I just picked up some AA2200 but have not tested it yet.

 

[rrwildlife]

Have you done a seating depth/powder charge test like described in the Tim Singleton thread? It is a load development method described in Tony Boyer's book.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3886764.0

Of the powders you have listed H4198 is the only one I have tried with my 20VT. You don't see many of those other powders you listed used to much extent if any. These are often mentioned if you have any: RL7 or AA2200

I would start with 18 grains of H4198 at 4 different seating depths - 3 rounds each. And another powder charge...seems like 18.5 is the other sweet spot a lot of people use - 3 rounds each. Have to shoot with flags or ribbons since the wind can impact those light bullets so much.

If you have already tried the method above, then give the 35 grain Bergers a try w/ H4198. After that I don't have any suggestions.

I had a Savage target action .223 shoot like that. 3 and 2 or 4 and 1. I finally gave up and sold the gun. Too bad really because I didn't know about the load development method described in Tony's book at that time. It might have come around with the right load and seating depth. But then again....

I tried to determine seating depth similar to the way Tony describes in his book. Unfortunately it is hard to make heads or tails when the gun chucks one out in left field. I would think I found something then "proof" the load and everything would be so inconsistent I couldn't tel if AI found something or not

 

[varmintshooter]

Why did you go with a .235 neck? Do you still need to turn the necks and if so what are you turning them to? Although I don't use them when hunting I have shot my best groups with the 35 gr bergers. My 3 vartargs are all 12 twist and all will shoot 40 vmax and 39 sbk with h4198.

 

[rrwildlife]

Why did you go with a .235 neck? Do you still need to turn the necks and if so what are you turning them to? Although I don't use them when hunting I have shot my best groups with the 35 gr bergers. My 3 vartargs are all 12 twist and all will shoot 40 vmax and 39 sbk with h4198.

The 235 neck is set up to run Laupa or Norma brass without having to turn the necks, it gives you about .004 clearance.

 

[rrwildlife]

I remember having problems with a shots going out of the group when I was running the hotest loads in my 6ppc. Maybe trying to find a lower node will work. You might also want to try a slightly slower powder too (and sacrifice a little velocity) --- If my memory serves me right, I believe that cooper uses H335 for their accuracy test load in 20 vartargs they manufacture. I generally consider this a slow-for-cartridge powder but a case of it might yield some promise. Please keep us posted on what you find that works.

JP

I'm not sure where you guys are finding nodes with the VT but to me it looked like the nodes were 17.5 and 18.8 using H-4189 from low to high.

 

[L.Sherm]

Otter is right around 18.5 of H4198 is the sweet spot, 19.2 is pretty darn hot IMHO. Around 20.0 of AA2200 should be in the ball game. I have not used RL7. BEWARE this is in my gun so start low and work up. Good luck lets us know how it turns out.

 

[rrwildlife]

I double checked via the cleaning rod and tight patch method and the twist is 1/11.25 best I can tell. Defiantly not 1/12

 

[North Fork]

Try RL 7

 

[Rick in Oregon]

Another +1 for RL-7 in the 20VT.

Here's some typical targets shot with my Cooper M38 VR using both Nosler 32gr BT's and 32gr Varmageddons during some recent range work:



AA2200 also shoots well in mine, but RL-7 is the top dawg in my rifle.

 

[bobtails]

Otter is right around 18.5 of H4198 is the sweet spot, 19.2 is pretty darn hot IMHO. Around 20.0 of AA2200 should be in the ball game. I have not used RL7. BEWARE this is in my gun so start low and work up. Good luck lets us know how it turns out.

My load is 18.3 gr of H4198 and it loves it. Mine is a Cooper model 38.