20 Practical

[wb243]

G'day all

I'm in the process of building a rifle in 20 Practical and have some queries regarding the sizing of the brass.

I have a whole lot of once fired .223 Remington brass,PMC brand) to resize.

As per Warren B's article under 'Guns of the Week', I am running the brass through a Redding Type S Full Length Die with a .243 bushing and a 20 cal decapping assembly.

My question is, how do I adjust the die with respect to the shell holder so that the neck is fully resized? Should the die and shell holder 'just' touch at the top of the stroke, or should there be significant interference/pressure between them? I have set it up to have significant interference/pressure between them, but it appears that the neck of the case has only been reduced in size along approximately 70% of it's length.

Secondly, I'm planning to use 3 bushings - .243, .233 and .228. How much do I need to back the decapping assembly off in order to bump the shoulder/neck junction the correct amount?

These questions should apply to all the 'Practical' type cases I think!

 

[Fireball]

Adjust the die just like any other FL die. It needs to touch the shell holder and overcam slightly at the top of the stroke. The reason you are only sizing 70% of the neck is because you don't have the bushing adjusted correctly. Screw down the decapping rod assembly so that it contacts the bushing then back it off no more than 1/8th of a turn and lock it in place. This will allow the bushing to "float" in the die, but still size the whole neck.

 

[Forum Boss]

Adjust the die just like any other FL die. It needs to touch the shell holder and overcam slightly at the top of the stroke. The reason you are only sizing 70% of the neck is because you don't have the bushing adjusted correctly. Screw down the decapping rod assembly so that it contacts the bushing then back it off no more than 1/8th of a turn and lock it in place. This will allow the bushing to "float" in the die, but still size the whole neck.

Fireball's advice is right for nearly all die/press set-ups. However I have found that, with a few presses, you can over-work your shoulder if you automatically set the die for shell-holder contact PLUS overcam. I have an older Rock-chucker press, and when a Redding 6BR FL die is set to bump the shoulder about .0015", an RCBS shell-holder doesn't even touch the die. If I set the die so there is over-cam, I move the shoulder about .005"--too much. Since it's a good idea to have shell-holder contact with the base of the die, a solution to this situation is to use a taller shell-holder. Redding makes a set of graduated shell-holders for this purposed.

You want to adjust your die downwards in small steps so that you only push the shoulder back enough to ensure smooth feeding into your chamber. Normally, this is somewhere between .001 and .002" of movement.

[Interestingly, using the same shellholder/die, but on an RCBS TURRET press, I DO have to set the ram to over-cam slightly in order to move the shoulder back. This is because there is more slack/flex in the turret press.]

Link for Redding Shellholders: http://www.reddingreloading.com/pages/compshellhldrs.html

Redding notes: "To provide desirable shellholder-to-die contact during sizing, without excessively setting the case shoulder back, Redding now offers shellholders that are in increments of .002” thicker than the industry standard. The nominal thickness for industry standard shellholders is .125”.,See dimension X on the shellholder diagram.) Our new Competition Shellholder Set includes five shellholders that are thicker than this in increments of .002”. Therefore, the set includes shellholders that are marked +.002, +.004, +.006, +.008 and +.010, which is the amount the shellholder will decrease case to chamber headspace."

 

[wb243]

Thanks for the feedback.

I did screw the decapping assembly fully up,down?) and then back off about 1/16 of a turn, so I think my problem might be with the Lee Shellholder. It's a no. 4 - used for .223 cases.

Does anyone specifically know if the Lee shellholders are a lot 'thicker' than the Redding shellholders? The reason I ask is because I don't even think I've touched the shoulder yet although have set the die to 'overcam' slightly. Will investigate tonight.

Not sure how many other '20 Practicals' there are out there, but I think I'm the first one in Australia! I'd be interested in hearing of others who have built one.

Out of interest, I've purchased a 2nd hand Rem 700 ADL in .222 Remington which I'm going to rebarrel with a Lilja SS with 1 in 12 twist. Will keep the original walnut stock for now. Scope will be Burris Fullfield II 4.5-14x42 and Hillver once piece base and mounts.

 

[Fireball]

I don't think it is your shell holder as all .223 shell holders are dimensionally the same. It is ok not being able to touch the shoulder with the die overcammed on new brass. This is normal. Your problem is your neck. You need to screw the decapping rod assembly down so that it presses the bushing against the die and then back it out just a tad,less than 1/8th turn) so that the bushing rattles inside the die. And make sure the decapping stem is adjusted so that it isn't bottoming out on the inside of the case at the flash hole. This would also prevent you from sizing the neck all the way to the shoulder. If you get the correct picture of how this die works in your head you will easily be able to figure this out. Go to Redding's web site and look closely at the cross section a type-S die so that what I am trying to explain makes more sense.

 

[rstreich]

None of the Redding bushing dies that I have will size the full length of the neck--about 70% sounds close to what I see. To get the full length of the neck, you'll have to have to deepen the well where the bushing sits.

From the pictures, it looks like the bushing comp die can size the whole neck, but neither of the others can. I had to have my gunsmith modify a set of dies for me so that I could get my 17 AHs to chamber.

robert

 

[wb243]

Very intresting, thanks Robert.

Has anyone else experienced these problems? And what have you done about it? I'm fairly sure I'm doing the right thing with the set up.

Also, for some reason I can't access the Redding Reloading website - anyone know why?

 

[wb243]

Aha!! I've worked it out! We were all right.

If a .223 Remington case is necked down to .204,20-223) and the 23 degree shoulder is maintained, then the neck on the 20-223 case is going to be shorter than the .223 case. And this is what I witnessed with the first step of the necking down process.

I actually necked down using three steps. A 243 bushing followed by a .233 and then lastly a .228. The finished product looks just like a bought one!

Hope this clears up a few things.

Interesting to note that if I was using my Type S .223 die to Full length resize a .223 case, then only about 70% of the neck would be resized. Interesting indeed!

Thanks to those who provided feedback.

 

[Fireball]

Two points.

First, as one necks down a standard cartridge,and doesn't do anything else to it at the same time) the neck actually grows longer, not shorter. The brass that you are squezing down has to go somewhere and most of it goes into making the neck longer.

Second, on every Redding type-s die I have ever used,perhaps 10 to 12 cartridges) they all will size the neck right down to the neck/shoulder junction. So if you guys only can get 70% of your neck sized then your die most likely isn't adjusted properly. I have never used the "Comp" version of the type-S dies, only the standard version, so I can't comment on them. But none of my standard type-S dies have required fidling with the deepness of the well. Perhaps I have just been lucky? Also, I only have type-S "neck" dies. I have never used the type-S "FL" dies.

 

[wb243]

Thanks Fireball.

I understand that the case will effectively grow longer so will require full length trimming.

The other '70%' issue has come about because I,and Robert?) are using 'FL' Type S dies NOT neck sizing Type S dies.

Thanks again, I think we've all learnt something here.

 

[rstreich]

For me, it's both on the neck and full-length type "S" dies,whatever "S" stands for). If you look at the cross section that Redding uses in their literature,for example, type S cross section), you can see that there is a fair amount of metal between the neck shoulder junction and the base of the bushing.

However, that picture could be misleading 'cause the hole for the case neck is usually a fair bit bigger than need be,I use .243 Win dies to neck size my .260 Rem, for example) and the taper of the shoulder could really be enough to bring the neck-shoulder junction up to the base of the bushing. But the picture presented a possible explanation to what I observe when I'm sizing my brass.

It could also be that my dies are just a touch too long. Since I use a Forster press, I can't change shellholder height. I only know that when the die is adjusted to come down hard on the jaws, I still can't get the whole neck sized. However, when I'm full-length sizing, cranking the die down that far bumps the shoulder too far. So, go figure.

So, I can't explain why I can't get the whole neck sized, but since it hasn't caused me any problems,except in the one instance of not being able to get 22 Hornet cases sized down far enough to chamber), I haven't tried to figure it out.

robert

 

[Fireball]

For reloading a case that is already formed and fits the chamber the 70% of the neck being sized will work fine. In fact I usually only partially size the neck down its length, just enough to hold the base of the bullet,most of my cartridges have long necks, but the .20 Practical is one that has a short neck that I size it all).

Now forming cases is different of course. Currently I am mostly working with 20 caliber cartridges and every piece of brass for my four 20s,20-222, 20-223/Practical, 20PPC and 20BR) has had to be formed by reducing the parent cartridge's neck. If my type-S dies couldn't form all the way down to the neck/shoulder junction my cases simply wouldn't be able to chamber in their respective rifles. When I look into my type-S dies I don't see the same bit of stand-off that I do when I look at Redding's picture. The top of the neck shoulder junction on my dies is a sharp edge that allows the neck/shoulder to be sized completely. Perhaps on some calibers this sharp edge isn't there?

So far here is a list of my Redding type-S dies that have had this sharp edge at the neck shoulder junction:

.17 Rem
.221FB
.222 Rem
.223 Rem
.22 PPC
6mm PPC
.22 BR
6mm BR
.22-250
.220 Swift
.243 Win

 

[Jim D]

I know this is a very old thread !

My Redding bushing dies don't Don't size the entire neck either !

Try an RCBS bushing die to form the 20 P.

Jim

 

[TheCZKid]

Aha!! I've worked it out! We were all right.

If a .223 Remington case is necked down to .204,20-223) and the 23 degree shoulder is maintained, then the neck on the 20-223 case is going to be shorter than the .223 case. And this is what I witnessed with the first step of the necking down process.

I actually necked down using three steps. A 243 bushing followed by a .233 and then lastly a .228. The finished product looks just like a bought one!

When I do my first sizing for 20 Practical, I use my RCBS 223 full length sizing die with the decapper rod and expander removed. That sizes the case plus the full neck, all the way to the shoulder on the first sizing, and amazing how a regular FL die reduces the neck diameter, a LOT more than is really needed. So it's going to be sized down about what you get with your 243 bushing. Then I do the .233 and finally .228, and they do look like they were store bought.
And yeah, tighten the bushing all the way, then back it off just enough to make the bushing able to rattle and move when you shake the die. It will free-float and be as low as possible.

 

[moorepower]

I was prepping a bunch of LC brass last summer, an I deprimed, then sized with a .223 SB die with no decapper. I though they looked like a .20 cal. I put one in my .20P and it dropped right in. I then measured the neck, and compared my .20P brass to it and it was identical. One step, no fuss. When I reload it, I use a redding bushing die.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I was prepping a bunch of LC brass last summer, an I deprimed, then sized with a .223 SB die with no decapper. I though they looked like a .20 cal. I put one in my .20P and it dropped right in. I then measured the neck, and compared my .20P brass to it and it was identical. One step, no fuss. When I reload it, I use a redding bushing die.

Pat, I asked you in another thread about that sm base die. I didn't think and wasn't sure if there is a 20P FL sm. base die even made. Now one more question , if you don't mind, what die brand is your FL. Small Base die?

 

[farmerjohn]

Tag

 

[moorepower]

It's an RCBS .223 die. Just remove the guts and run it in.

 

[Dgd6mm]

It's an RCBS .223 die. Just remove the guts and run it in.

Thank you.
Don Dunlap

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Something is wrong with your .223 die if it necks brass down to 0.225 ish outside diameter. 223 rem 0.244 ish. So I could see 223 die sizing neck 0.240.