185 Berger load advice

[bgblue1978]

Loaded up some 185 Berger hybrids in 308 and shot them today. Factory Savage 10t shot from Harris bipod and a rear bag.

185 Berger hybrids over varget in 1x fired winchester brass with CCI br2 primers. Bullets seat to .015 off the lands as tested with Hornady tool. Brass was annealed, full length sized to bump shoulder back .001, trimmed, chamfer and deburr neck, primer pockets uniformed, and flash hole deburred. No need to neck turn them as necks we're around .0005 variance already. I shot 5 shot groups from 40-42 grains in .5 increments. This is the Berger listed max but it appeared not to be even remotely hot load with no signs of pressure. It's worth noting that my rounds a longer than their listed oal.

So, the question is:. Target looked fairly good. 1 group was just under moa at 300 yards, but the other 4 were noticably better with the best being 1.4" at 300 yards. But the numbers were not good. None had even single digit SD for a 5 shot group. The purpose of the load is 1k yard target shooting so would you guys recommend I play with seating depth like the Berger method suggests or keep pushing the velocity up a bit and see what happens. At the current velocities my 155 smk loads beat it in both drop and drift out to 1k so i would probably stick with that if this load doesn't improve. Just trying to decide the best direction to go because they aren't cheap bullets so I don't want to shoot a box before I even find a load

 

[watercam]

I have always felt the Berger Manual to be hopelessly conservative. Try the Nosler or Lyman manuals. My experience with the 185 Juggs led me to H4350 (43 gr. as I recall)/Lapua Palma brass/Wolf SR primers for a velocity of 2750fps from a 30" barrel. Your Varget load could be carefully worked up a bit higher as the ES/SD numbers and overall accuracy will improve with a near maximum load. Just my $.02.

 

[bgblue1978]

Haha thanks Joe. I've only been reloading for a couple of years. I've gone above max before but always slowly and keeping in mind it will be hot here in the Texas summers It's a stock 1:10 24" barrel. These 185s we're coming out around 2650. The 155s I am pushing around 2950 in the same 24" barel.

My main question was is it reccomrecom to go up in load first or mess with seating depth first. It grouped well already but the velocities weren't consistent enough for 1k shooting and the velocity was too slow to make the heavy bullet better in the long run so I think that answers the question illI work the velocity up first and if it isn't grouping well at the top end I can play with seating later.

 

[bgblue1978]

Thanks that's what I'll do. It isn't ideal but we just bang steel it's not for competition.

 

[Boatschool02]

Good advice above on attempting to find a node, first, even if it is a lower one.
(BC (wind drift) and the added recoil of the 185s are meaningless if it isn't accurate.)
From there you'll be able to see the groups scatter, per se, and more safely assess if the next one up is even attainable.
If you're out of tune (excessive vertical in and between groups), you'll only achieve so much with follow on seating depth testing.
I'm not sure how much of this can be ascertained at MOA groups, however.
Brass volume variances by brand & primer size and powder lot to lot variations can make internet comparisons dicey. (+/- a grain). I use a 29" barrel, Lapua Palma brass, and with one slow-er lot of Varget needed over 44.4 grains just to break 2700 FPS. Others have reported mid 2700s with a charge weight in the mid 43s.
-
I'm sure someone smarter than I can probably offer a pretty accurate anticipated node to node velocity range for your given barrel length.
I didn't spend much time with the 155 class of bullets, but if you told me you're getting 2950 out of a 24" barrel, I'd have assumed you were near the top. I've also heard of other shooters using the Winchester brass precisely because it has more volume.

 

[JayBeeYou]

Thanks that's what I'll do. It isn't ideal but we just bang steel it's not for competition.

I run a 308 with a 24" barrel for same purposes, hunting and steel. I have run everything through it from 155 to 190. I have settled on a 155 scenar at 2940 (47 varget wincester case). I have found the difference in wind to be minimal for purpose of steel shooting, but lower recoil over 185's to be a huge benefit in self spotting. I found the little extra recoil was just enough to miss many shots through rifle scope with juggernauts.

If you are safely and accurately pushing the 155's I would (and do) stay with them. I just shot last mid range match at 500 with this rifle for fun. I was out of competition because of suppressor but would have won FTR class with the 155's. Basically out to about 800 yards the a good 155 will hang right with the 185's from what I have seen.

 

[Lone Hunter]

I run a 308 with a 24" barrel for same purposes, hunting and steel. I have run everything through it from 155 to 190. I have settled on a 155 scenar at 2940 (47 varget wincester case). I have found the difference in wind to be minimal for purpose of steel shooting, but lower recoil over 185's to be a huge benefit in self spotting. I found the little extra recoil was just enough to miss many shots through rifle scope with juggernauts.

If you are safely and accurately pushing the 155's I would (and do) stay with them. I just shot last mid range match at 500 with this rifle for fun. I was out of competition because of suppressor but would have won FTR class with the 155's. Basically out to about 800 yards the a good 155 will hang right with the 185's from what I have seen.

What about 1000 yards with the 155's? I'm shooting the 185 Juggs and am always looking for something else. How do the 155's do at 1000 yds and what do speeds do you run them? I have a Broughton 26" 11.25 twist and would like to try them. This would be for FTR only.

 

[JayBeeYou]

What about 1000 yards with the 155's? I'm shooting the 185 Juggs and am always looking for something else. How do the 155's do at 1000 yds and what do speeds do you run them? I have a Broughton 26" 11.25 twist and would like to try them. This would be for FTR only.

For FTR I would always suggest running the highest BC bullet you can run. You have no concerns about spotting your hit or miss on a steel target where you may not have the benefit of a spotter. The 185's at 2700 will pick up .1 to .2 mils (think 1/3 to 3/4 moa'ish) out at 1000 over the 155's. FTR has a target that is pulled and spotter marking each shot, so run as high a BC as you can effectively manage with your equipment and ability to manage recoil.

I ran a 11.25 barrel for a while and it loved juggernauts, but when I tried 200's I could get them to group at 100, but never got them to shoot flat past that. There are plenty on here that have run an 11 twist with 200's and won. I think 11 is the last twist that will run a 200 and 11.25 is just a hair too slow.

All that said for your description I would find a good load with a juggernaut or 185 hybrid at around 2700. Will reach 1000 accurately and for years was the standard FTR load if there was one. The 200+ bullets are dominating for the top level shooters but your rifle needs a longer barrel and freebore to run them at competitive speeds.

E.T.A
If you are looking to try something a little different don't overlook the 168 Berger hybrid. I ran them at mid 2800's with XBR 8208 and 24" barrel and they have a great BC and hammered at 1000 for me. Out of 30"barrel using varget had them at 2900's range and loved them, light recoil and very accurate.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

I have always felt the Berger Manual to be hopelessly conservative. Try the Nosler or Lyman manuals. My experience with the 185 Juggs led me to H4350 (43 gr. as I recall)/Lapua Palma brass/Wolf SR primers for a velocity of 2750fps from a 30" barrel. Your Varget load could be carefully worked up a bit higher as the ES/SD numbers and overall accuracy will improve with a near maximum load. Just my $.02.

As I ventured into FTR from Palma back in 2008, the best .308 bullet that I knew of at the time was the Berger 185, a forerunner of the Juggernaut, as things turned out. I did not even stop to consider a "safe" powder load, and immediately started testing with 48.0 grains of IMR 4350, then switched permanently to H4350, in the Remington BR case (small primer), using Russian SR primers. My reason and confidence for the safety of that load with the 185 was that I regularly shot 48.0 grains of IMR-4350 with the SMK 200 grain HPBT when I formerly shot NRA HP at 600 yards. All this because the Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition Rifle Reloading Manual (page 426) allowed for 47.9 grains of IMR-4350 with that bullet. And, I was well on notice that the manual was conservative.

Dan

 

[Ned Ludd]

Barrel length plays a critical role in determining the velocities and accuracy nodes you can safely reach with a given weight bullet. Other factors, such as freebore length and the type of brass are also important factors. For example, it is not difficult to reach the ~2725-2750 fps range, which corresponds to OBT Node 4, from a 30" barrel with a relatively short freebore (~COAL = 2.890") using 185s with Varget or H4895. However, in standard Lapua brass (large rifle primer), such a load will likely be running in the 61-62K psi range, and brass life won't be so great. In contrast, Palma brass (small rifle primer) will take those pressures without issue for a long time. Alternatively, having a longer freebore (~COAL = 3.000"+) will also allow you to hit those velocities at slightly lower pressure, possibly prolonging the lifespan of large rifle primer brass.

According to QuickLoad, running 185s at 2650 fps with Varget from a 24" barrel is already way over SAAMI MAX pressure for .308 Win when using Lapua Standard brass if the rifle has a relatively short freebore (~COAL = 2.890", predicted pressure ~64.2K psi). With a longer freebore and standard brass, hitting the same velocity is predicted to generate about 2K less pressure (~COAL = 3.000", predicted pressure ~62K psi). I can tell you from personal experience running 185s at comparable pressures in Lapua Standard brass that it won't last very long under those conditions. If Winchester brass has slightly more volume than Lapua brass, that would work in your favor in terms of pressure, similar to extending the freebore. However, your best bet is to switch to .308 Palma brass. Because the small rifle primer pocket has substantially more metal surrounding it, it can tolerate those kind of pressures far better than large rifle primer brass. Nonetheless, even with a longer freebore, you're talking about pressures predicted to be in the 64-65K psi range (or higher) if you try to go much over 2650-ish fps with 185s from a 24" barrel. Even Palma brass won't take that forever. In my hands, the pressures predicted by QL relative to SAAMI MAX correlate pretty well with brass life.

So you can certainly achieve higher velocities, but what's the point, really? A 185 Hybrid leaving the bore at 2650 fps should hit the 1000 yd mark well above Mach 1 (~Mach 1.23 @ 1000 ft elevation, 70 degrees F). Unless you're talking about increasing velocity by 75-100 fps or more, it's such a marginal gain that it's debatable whether you could even shoot the difference. Moreover, it will cost you in the long run, even if it's only poor brass life. Get yourself a 30" barrel and some Palma brass and you will never look back.

One other thing I would add: you didn't mention your seating depth. In my hands, the 185 Hybrids tune in at about .009" to .012" off the lands, which is a little closer than what I typically find with Juggernauts. Optimizing seating depth for that specific bullet will be worth your time, if you haven't already.

 

[bgblue1978]

Ned, thanks for the info. I certainly wouldn't argue with quick load or your experience but these didn't seem near pressure at all to me. At least no signs from the brass or the bolt. I have pushed the edges with this rifle before, particularly with the 155s and I tend to see some cratering and flattened primers and finally a sticky bolt but I didn't have any signs with these. Just to be clear my current 155 load doesn't have those signs but at one point I switched lots of varget and had to work up again and quickly found pressure at lower charges than the previous lot. I can't remember the COAL of the to of my head but the 185s were fairly long seated to 15 off the lands. In the end I'll almost certainly stick with the 155s since they shoot so well but just wanted to try something new since so many people have done so well witht he Berger 185 in the 308 world.

 

[barefooter56]

Ned, thanks for the info. I certainly wouldn't argue with quick load or your experience but these didn't seem near pressure at all to me. At least no signs from the brass or the bolt. I have pushed the edges with this rifle before, particularly with the 155s and I tend to see some cratering and flattened primers and finally a sticky bolt but I didn't have any signs with these. Just to be clear my current 155 load doesn't have those signs but at one point I switched lots of varget and had to work up again and quickly found pressure at lower charges than the previous lot. I can't remember the COAL of the to of my head but the 185s were fairly long seated to 15 off the lands. In the end I'll almost certainly stick with the 155s since they shoot so well but just wanted to try something new since so many people have done so well witht he Berger 185 in the 308 world.

bgblue1978,
This will help explain the effects of bullet seating depth :http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/COAL.pdf . It sounds like you may be close to a good load with what you have found in your testing already so one of two things may need a little tweaking. I would suggest trying the bullet seating depth first . Try small moves of about .002-.003 going back into the cartridge case if you are not seeing any pressure signs now. .015 off the lands is usually where I recommend starting your bullet seating depth testing with our HYBRID Target or EOL/ELITE HUNTER HYBRID bullets. Then work back into the cartridge case in .005 increments. Load development is where you use the most in time and components but the effort is worth it. If you try to take short cuts it usually ends up in tears or spending more time and money starting over. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions!

 

[98Vandal]

I have always felt the Berger Manual to be hopelessly conservative. Try the Nosler or Lyman manuals. My experience with the 185 Juggs led me to H4350 (43 gr. as I recall)/Lapua Palma brass/Wolf SR primers for a velocity of 2750fps from a 30" barrel. Your Varget load could be carefully worked up a bit higher as the ES/SD numbers and overall accuracy will improve with a near maximum load. Just my $.02.

I've just bought a 308 and have some H4350 as I can't get any Varget. For your load using H4350 and 185 gr Juggernauts, what load did you start with and what did you find to be optimum? I'm assuming from your post that 43 gr of H4350 has worked well but am curious as to how you went down the H4350 path and why? I'm at this juncture given the current environment but am curious as to your approach/methodology and want to work something up with H4350 as it's all I've got.

 

[6MT]

Here’s my recipe for the 185gr Juggernaught...

PGW Coyote (2.0) .308Win:
185gr Berger Juggernaught OTM (1:9" twist)
Lapua brass, CCI BR2 primers, 45.5gr D4064SSC
CBTO (ogive): 2.360" (.010" jump) with .170" free bore
2760fps (11c, R.H. 68% RH, 792m ASL)

(Kreiger MTU 17 @28“ 1:9”)
A really nice 1300m load. And it appears there’s lots left. We shall see this season.

 

[AckleymanII]

what is this in English (D4064SSC)?

 

[6MT]

what is this in English (D4064SSC)?

IMR4064 equivalent

 

[AckleymanII]

Thanks!

 

[D-4297]

I shot the 185 Hybrid out of my Kelby 1-10t , 30" 5r for a year , and after extensive load work-up , I came to two conclusions . In my rifle , they would only shoot tight groups at either .005 off touch , or at .020 off . No real reason for it . Also spent a year trying to get a 26" barrel to 1,000 with consistent accuracy . Good luck with that if you're trying to shoot TR . The 30's will wear you out as soon as the wind enters the range . It will hold it own at 600 , but the longer barrel has a proven distinct advantage at 1,000 .
Lapua SRP Brass
Rem 7 1/2 BR primer
43.8 gr Varget
185gr Berger Hybrid
2.365" BTO
Avg. velocity was 2650 - 2660 fps ......SD - 7 to 8 .
Scores were low to mid 190's Operator Required !

 

[North Fork]

Try the 180gr Berger Elite hunter

 

[Jessie Smith]

I shot the 185 Hybrid out of my Kelby 1-10t , 30" 5r for a year , and after extensive load work-up , I came to two conclusions . In my rifle , they would only shoot tight groups at either .005 off touch , or at .020 off . No real reason for it . Also spent a year trying to get a 26" barrel to 1,000 with consistent accuracy . Good luck with that if you're trying to shoot TR . The 30's will wear you out as soon as the wind enters the range . It will hold it own at 600 , but the longer barrel has a proven distinct advantage at 1,000 .
Lapua SRP Brass
Rem 7 1/2 BR primer
43.8 gr Varget
185gr Berger Hybrid
2.365" BTO
Avg. velocity was 2650 - 2660 fps ......SD - 7 to 8 .
Scores were low to mid 190's Operator Required !

I agree with you totally