17 HMR Splitting Nearly Every Case

[Barossa_222]

I have an Anschutz 1517 HB and run Federal loads in it and have never had a case split in all the years I've owned the gun. I have shot Winchester and CCI loads in the gun successfully and have never had a problem. Could be a mixture of oversized chamber and undersized brass. I would have sold the gun long before now and invested in something nicer. Good luck with it.

 

[searcher]

I've been using a combination of kroil oil and Lucas, mostly. About every 4th time I use Bore Tech C4. I might go to J-B if I scope the chamber and it still looks bad.

Could I ask what you use for cleaning your 17? Especially what solvent you use in the chamber overnight.

I soak with Butch's. It will absolutely do the job to ensure the rings don't form when soaked overnight. I'm doubtful the Kroil and Lucas would do much, if anything to a carbon ring. That stuff is really tough. I know there are some fairly decent carbon removers out there from what I heard - but the ones I have tried were pretty disappointing. Once you get a really bad ring - it usually takes some physical aggression to get it out - and that J.B works really well.

 

[jjhall91]

I have an Anschutz 1517 HB and run Federal loads in it and have never had a case split in all the years I've owned the gun. I have shot Winchester and CCI loads in the gun successfully and have never had a problem. Could be a mixture of oversized chamber and undersized brass. I would have sold the gun long before now and invested in something nicer. Good luck with it.

If only I could afford an Anschutz or the likes! The reason(s) I "cling" to this rifle is: it shoots in the 7's most of the time at 100 yds. I replaced the seer and custom made and installed a wide trigger. This combination allows for a pull of 1.5 lbs+-. I have a custom stock that fits me perfectly. I got lucky on the bedding job (used pillars as well) and there's no play whatsoever. I fashioned a tuner (very crude, but did seem to slightly shrink the groups).

All and all, finding another 17 around the same weight that shoots as well as this one would be a challenge based on the many that I've seen at the range. Especially considering I only have a little of $700 in it.

However, if Savage says this gun is finished, I'll most likely take your advise and move up if for nothing more than longevity.

Thanks for the input, Barossa.

 

[jjhall91]

I soak with Butch's. It will absolutely do the job to ensure the rings don't form when soaked overnight. I'm doubtful the Kroil and Lucas would do much, if anything to a carbon ring. That stuff is really tough. I know there are some fairly decent carbon removers out there from what I heard - but the ones I have tried were pretty disappointing. Once you get a really bad ring - it usually takes some physical aggression to get it out - and that J.B works really well.

I hear what you're saying about how hard it is to get rid of the carbon ring. I used BoreTech C4 in some of the centerfires and still had a heck of a time getting rid of it. Especially in the Dasher.

I'll try soaking in Butch's overnight. But I'm going to order some J-B just in case. I've come to the conclusion you're right about the Kroil Oil and Lucas. This combination worked if you cleaned after 20 rounds or so (and used Sweets now and then for copper). I really dislike having to clean that often.

Thanks, Searcher. Take care!

 

[jelenko]

FYI. The hard carbon in carbon rings is removed only through some mechanical means - e.g., JB, Iosso.

 

[Outrider27]

FYI. The hard carbon in carbon rings is removed only through some mechanical means - e.g., JB, Iosso.

It's still a mechanical means, but I have had no problems removing the carbon ring by soaking over night with a patch soaked with any of 2 or 3 compounds claiming to loosen carbon, such as Butch's, then vigorously going after it with a wire brush spun by hand or with a variable speed electric drill for as long as it took to get rid of it - a minute or two. Results verified with a borescope. Have had some that were a bit more stubborn than others, but I have never had to resort to JB or Iosso to remove a carbon ring. Apparently, your mileage varies from mine.

 

[jjhall91]

It's still a mechanical means, but I have had no problems removing the carbon ring by soaking over night with a patch soaked with any of 2 or 3 compounds claiming to loosen carbon, such as Butch's, then vigorously going after it with a wire brush spun by hand or with a variable speed electric drill for as long as it took to get rid of it - a minute or two. Results verified with a borescope. Have had some that were a bit more stubborn than others, but I have never had to resort to JB or Iosso to remove a carbon ring. Apparently, your mileage varies from mine.

It's amazing to me how many of us have different experiences with removing carbon rings. I think those (myself included) who allow the carbon ring to build over time realize a lot more difficulty. I've spoken with some top notch shooters at Myakka who tell me if they clean every 20 shots or so they never realize a ring.

To your point, Outrider, many tell me they make sure their rifles are at least wet, if not soaked, frequently. I know several who do so 100% of the time in between shoots.

I feel the more abrasive cleaners are for guys like me who may not clean thoroughly or often enough. Sometimes it takes the drill and wire brush to remove it. Many find no need for this as whatever cleaning method and compounds they use largely prevents it.

I'm going to try soaking with Butch's, frequently, and see what happens.

 

[rhogg5519]

Back to the original point of split necks, I have found they split of their own accord unless quantum theory can connect your carbon ring cause with the ammunition before it has been inserted into the breach that is.

Being serious now, 50% of my stock has splits in the neck I have found. It is just over 5 years old which could explain it. After finding more and more split necks after firing I examined all my old stock. I also have a lot that have splits in the shoulder after firing.

I am using a CZ455 entirely for foxes which has only fired around 250 rounds. I am not so worried about shoulders splitting but I am concerned about using ammo that has splits in the neck which could have moisture contamination causing poor firing.

FWIW I did contact the supplier but they dismissed it as not their problem as it was too old. So now I always check every round before use and I also limit this rifle for necessary shots only in the field behind the house, everywhere else I can use a 223.

Rob.

 

[jjhall91]

Back to the original point of split necks, I have found they split of their own accord unless quantum theory can connect your carbon ring cause with the ammunition before it has been inserted into the breach that is.

Being serious now, 50% of my stock has splits in the neck I have found. It is just over 5 years old which could explain it. After finding more and more split necks after firing I examined all my old stock. I also have a lot that have splits in the shoulder after firing.

I am using a CZ455 entirely for foxes which has only fired around 250 rounds. I am not so worried about shoulders splitting but I am concerned about using ammo that has splits in the neck which could have moisture contamination causing poor firing.

FWIW I did contact the supplier but they dismissed it as not their problem as it was too old. So now I always check every round before use and I also limit this rifle for necessary shots only in the field behind the house, everywhere else I can use a 223.

Rob.

Rob, as I stated previously, I contacted Hornady about the splits in my ammo. They had me send a couple boxes of each lot along with a half dozen or so split cases. They assured me if they found an issue they would replace both lots.

In the conversation I was told they were aware of splits in different brands. They also told me the dominant amount of splits were found in 7 year old, or older, ammo. Regardless of age they said they would replace lots that were found to be defective.

They also told me most 17HMR ammo was made by a single manufacturer. You may want to give Hornady a call regardless of what brand you have. They have incentive to help in the matter (inherent liability as designers).

You have a very good reason to be concerned about moisture. Getting a "slow" fire can wedge a bullet in the barrel causing both a safety and cost issue.

I'll be calling Hornady for an update early next week. If you'd like I can ask them their thoughts regarding your situation.

(Check out post #21. Riverside Jeep had success with a like problem.)

 

[rhogg5519]

You have a very good reason to be concerned about moisture. Getting a "slow" fire can wedge a bullet in the barrel causing both a safety and cost issue.

I can recall one occasion when I missed an easy shot. I thought it sounded different but I wear electronic ear defenders so I was not sure. When I got back I found the barrel loose and put my miss down to that.

I know, what do I mean by barrel loose on a CZ? The barrel is attached by two screws which by everybody else's account are nearly impossible to undo but in my case one was very loose and the other not tight.

My intention now is to only buy a single box of fifty at a time and take any split cartridges back to the supplier. I did look to see if there was another suitable rifle that could be used for close range varmint control but I found nothing so I am stuck with the 17hmr and the risk.

 

[dellet]

I have had better luck removing stubborn carbon if the barrel and or whatever cleaner I’m using is warm. Having soaked patches ready after firing a few shots can be enough. If wanting to soak it’s tough but pouring warm cleaner into a plugged chamber is better than nothing.

As for split necks, I don’t know if this applies, but I use 17 WSM necked up as a parent case for 25 rimfire (obsolete cartridge). The brass is poorly prepped from the factory. Failure rate of split necks is over 50% unless I trim the neck first. The factory trim/chamfer is so poorly done that if you look at it with a magnifying glass it looks like it was cut with a serrated cutter.

It’s not common but splits at the shoulder happen from time to time and if it happens to one in a box, it seems to happen to a handful. This would seem to support poor annealing or hard brittle brass occasionally in lot to lot variations.

 

[PigButtons]

I did look to see if there was another suitable rifle that could be used for close range varmint control but I found nothing so I am stuck with the 17hmr and the risk.

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I'd recommend looking into a PCP air rifle. In .25 or .30 from a quality maker like FX, Air Arms, RAW, and many others will give humane kills out to a minimum of 75 yards and anything smaller than a coyote out to 100. With a moderator they are nearly silent and they have slugs that are absolutely devastating.

 

[jjhall91]

I can recall one occasion when I missed an easy shot. I thought it sounded different but I wear electronic ear defenders so I was not sure. When I got back I found the barrel loose and put my miss down to that.

I know, what do I mean by barrel loose on a CZ? The barrel is attached by two screws which by everybody else's account are nearly impossible to undo but in my case one was very loose and the other not tight.

My intention now is to only buy a single box of fifty at a time and take any split cartridges back to the supplier. I did look to see if there was another suitable rifle that could be used for close range varmint control but I found nothing so I am stuck with the 17hmr and the risk.

Good move! Those in the business should stand behind their products/sales.

Sorry to hear about the CZ. I appreciate you sharing as I was considering a CZ if Savage said my 93r wasn't fixable. Won't CZ go good for the rifle? I'd certainly check with them.

(PicButtons' suggestion regarding the air rifle is interesting. I don't own one, but several of my friends in highly populated areas use them for critter control.)

 

[jjhall91]

I have had better luck removing stubborn carbon if the barrel and or whatever cleaner I’m using is warm. Having soaked patches ready after firing a few shots can be enough. If wanting to soak it’s tough but pouring warm cleaner into a plugged chamber is better than nothing.

As for split necks, I don’t know if this applies, but I use 17 WSM necked up as a parent case for 25 rimfire (obsolete cartridge). The brass is poorly prepped from the factory. Failure rate of split necks is over 50% unless I trim the neck first. The factory trim/chamfer is so poorly done that if you look at it with a magnifying glass it looks like it was cut with a serrated cutter.

It’s not common but splits at the shoulder happen from time to time and if it happens to one in a box, it seems to happen to a handful. This would seem to support poor annealing or hard brittle brass occasionally in lot to lot variations.

No doubt brass that's poorly annealed from the factory is, sooner or later, going to cause issues. I haven't heard back from either Savage or Hornady, but I'm afraid my situation includes something with the chamber.

In regard to your thought of a warm barrel: I've known guys who use a hair dryer to warm the chamber and barrel. They swear it helps in the cleaning process. Who knows!?

 

[jjhall91]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I'd recommend looking into a PCP air rifle. In .25 or .30 from a quality maker like FX, Air Arms, RAW, and many others will give humane kills out to a minimum of 75 yards and anything smaller than a coyote out to 100. With a moderator they are nearly silent and they have slugs that are absolutely devastating.

That's an interesting thought. If a person wanted to shoot metal silhouettes at 100 yards are there air rifles accurate enough to do that?

 

[PigButtons]

That's an interesting thought. If a person wanted to shoot metal silhouettes at 100 yards are there air rifles accurate enough to do that?

First off, I've never shot silhouette so I'm only speculating. If I look at the SSAA site there are Air Rifle specific events, so I'd say they are capable. I don't know if most of the air rifles will knock down a rimfire target at 100 yards or if they have Air Rifle specific targets. I do know that some of the better air rifles in 30 cal will out perform rimfire at 100 yards in Benchrest, ( it's ok, I have on my nomex boxers ).

I hope that's coherent.

edit to add: I just looked at the FX Impact here: FX MK3 ,and in 30 cal it has potential to have 124 ft/lbs where a HV 22lr has 131 ft/lbs. So it's pretty close, and with the better consistency it should be a good trade off.

 

[jjhall91]

First off, I've never shot silhouette so I'm only speculating. If I look at the SSAA site there are Air Rifle specific events, so I'd say they are capable. I don't know if most of the air rifles will knock down a rimfire target at 100 yards or if they have Air Rifle specific targets. I do know that some of the better air rifles in 30 cal will out perform rimfire at 100 yards in Benchrest, ( it's ok, I have on my nomex boxers ).

I hope that's coherent.

edit to add: I just looked at the FX Impact here: FX MK3 ,and in 30 cal it has potential to have 124 ft/lbs where a HV 22lr has 131 ft/lbs. So it's pretty close, and with the better consistency it should be a good trade off.

Boxers, huh. LOL!

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware air rifles came in 30 caliber. I'll take a look at the website. Given the ft/lbs, this is a serious weapon.

 

[jjhall91]

UPDATE: I guess I'll never know what the problem was/is with the 17HMR. Savage returned the rifle, yesterday, with no details. I just got off the phone with them and was told because I had an aftermarket part (Rife Basix seer) installed they would not inspect the gun as is their policy. (Looks like I need to find another gun.)

Hornady was much more accommodating and has offered, depending on the findings from Savage, to replace both lots of ammo in the case this was the fault. I've tried enough different ammo and the splits remain so I'm confident the ammo is not the problem.

(If you have technical questions for Hornady, I highly recommend speaking with Shannon. He was not only very professional and accommodating, but went out-of-his-way to assure I was updated and satisfied with our conversations. This was "old school" customer service that we so sorely lack now days.)

In any case, thanks to all who helped! Regardless of the outcome I consider myself lucky as I've learned a great deal from those on this board.

Jack

 

[jepp2]

That was a more considerate response from Hornady than I received. Last year during my annual prairie dog hunt, I began having some FTE (failure to extract) occurrences on CZ455 with a Lilja barrel on in chambered in 17 HMR. I would have to use a brass rod to lightly knock the case from the chamber. I began to notice as that occurred, I would find a crack in the shoulder. Some would extract, but the ones that were swelled the most wouldn't. I took the pic below and sent it to Hornady Tech, along with the lot number of the loaded ammo.

Their response was something like, we don't anneal the shoulders on the 17 HMR loaded ammo, and after it gets to be a few years old, cracks are to be expected.

Probably about 6-8% of what I shot cracked. Life goes on.

 

[jjhall91]

That was a more considerate response from Hornady than I received. Last year during my annual prairie dog hunt, I began having some FTE (failure to extract) occurrences on CZ455 with a Lilja barrel on in chambered in 17 HMR. I would have to use a brass rod to lightly knock the case from the chamber. I began to notice as that occurred, I would find a crack in the shoulder. Some would extract, but the ones that were swelled the most wouldn't. I took the pic below and sent it to Hornady Tech, along with the lot number of the loaded ammo.

Their response was something like, we don't anneal the shoulders on the 17 HMR loaded ammo, and after it gets to be a few years old, cracks are to be expected.

Probably about 6-8% of what I shot cracked. Life goes on.

That does surprise me and it's BS. If they were aware the shelf life of this ammo was only a few years they should state it. They did tell me they found most of the splitting issues reported was with ammo over 7 years old (and that's not very long for ammo).

Maybe I just got a good rep (Shannon). He assured me if Savage found the gun/chamber was not at fault they would replace both lots (4000 rnds).

(I'm sure you checked for the carbon ring, but thought I'd mention it. I've been told by several guys who responded, the problem went away after they removed the carbon.)