17 HMR Splitting Nearly Every Case

[bhoges]

I have seen the same thing on my Rem 547 which has a Shilen barrel. Funny that rifle replaced my Rem 597 that blow up on a prairie dog trip. Those cartridges must be running pretty close to max pressure. As long as the rim doesn't rupture youll be ok.

 

[SweaterDood]

My guess would be that either the headspace is excessive (chamber shoulder too far forward) or that the chamber neck diameter is too large. The brass WILL conform to the chamber during firing, so an oversized chamber - either in headspace or neck dia. - will allow the brass to move too far. Couple this with high pressure and/or defective/low quality brass... split necks.

Another contributing factor could be the throat, typically a rimfire (.22lr) has a slight jam fit in a rifle. With a jacketed bullet and a bottleneck cartridge this couple be less than ideal. Especially with a thin rimfire case and a bad chamber to case ratio. If this is the case, be very diligent in checking for a carbon ring as it will magnify the issue (1split > 5+ / box, etc.)

 

[searcher]

Because you are getting two brands of ammo splitting necks (a lot), whereas you had fired Hornady brass previously with no splits - I'm thinking that, while you think your chamber is clean - you may have a huge build-up of tough carbon in your neck, effectively "choking" your necks. This is like having the vise-grips holding your bullet in the case, effectively raising chamber pressures to unsafe levels. cleaning it out is a pain in a .17 caliber gun. I use a long-handled pistol cleaning brush for rimfire that does not have a swiveling handle. Attach a nylon .22 rimfire brush with some of the tip bristles cut off with scissors so that you can wrap a patch around the tip. Smear J. B. Bore Paste on the patch and run it into the chamber. Twist it round and around for maybe 20 turns, then pull patch out and inspect. Will be coal black. Repeat with new patches till it comes out clean. On my semi-auto .17 HMR, I use a .17 cal. rod and brush, though inserting rod from muzzle, then installing brush in the action opening. I don't pull it far enough towards the muzzle to make it enter the bore. If this was it, you will know right away and doesn't cost much to try. Good luck!

 

[jjhall91]

My guess would be that either the headspace is excessive (chamber shoulder too far forward) or that the chamber neck diameter is too large. The brass WILL conform to the chamber during firing, so an oversized chamber - either in headspace or neck dia. - will allow the brass to move too far. Couple this with high pressure and/or defective/low quality brass... split necks.

Another contributing factor could be the throat, typically a rimfire (.22lr) has a slight jam fit in a rifle. With a jacketed bullet and a bottleneck cartridge this couple be less than ideal. Especially with a thin rimfire case and a bad chamber to case ratio. If this is the case, be very diligent in checking for a carbon ring as it will magnify the issue (1split > 5+ / box, etc.)

Sorry for the delayed response! (I was "under the weather" for a bit.)

Between your thoughts and those of "Searcher", regarding the possibility of carbon build up, I should have considered that, myself. As you say, it could be a combination of things, but the easiest to quantify would be the carbon ring. I have a scope and and now wish I'd have use it before sending the gun back.

An excessive carbon ring could explain why this seemed to get worse over time/shooting. As you alluded, a ring coupled with a thin (sometimes inferior brass) could combine to split brass on a regular basis.

Thank you for the help! It will be more than interesting to see what Savage says in regard to the issue. I will be sure to let you know.

 

[jjhall91]

Because you are getting two brands of ammo splitting necks (a lot), whereas you had fired Hornady brass previously with no splits - I'm thinking that, while you think your chamber is clean - you may have a huge build-up of tough carbon in your neck, effectively "choking" your necks. This is like having the vise-grips holding your bullet in the case, effectively raising chamber pressures to unsafe levels. cleaning it out is a pain in a .17 caliber gun. I use a long-handled pistol cleaning brush for rimfire that does not have a swiveling handle. Attach a nylon .22 rimfire brush with some of the tip bristles cut off with scissors so that you can wrap a patch around the tip. Smear J. B. Bore Paste on the patch and run it into the chamber. Twist it round and around for maybe 20 turns, then pull patch out and inspect. Will be coal black. Repeat with new patches till it comes out clean. On my semi-auto .17 HMR, I use a .17 cal. rod and brush, though inserting rod from muzzle, then installing brush in the action opening. I don't pull it far enough towards the muzzle to make it enter the bore. If this was it, you will know right away and doesn't cost much to try. Good luck!

Sorry for the late response!

Both your and SweaterDood's thought regarding a carbon ring is an eye opener. While I cleaned the gun, periodically, I never gave the carbon ring the same attention as my centerfires (don't ask me why).

Mostly, I used a combination of Kroil Oil and Lucas, but I did, occasionally, use Boretech Carbon Remover when cleaning, but perhaps not nearly often enough.

Thanks for the thought and detailed cleaning method. I'll get some J B and use the method you described.

As I stated in my response to SweaterDood, a carbon ring would explain why things worsened over time.

I'll be sure to let you know when I hear from Savage and Hornady.

Thanks for the help!

 

[SweaterDood]

No problem. People generally understand that rimfire are dirty, but only equate this to .22lr. Add a very thin bottleneck case and the issue is magnified. That main difference of straight-wall vs. bottleneck case is why carbon rings don’t seem to cause major issues in .22lr rifles.

Again, it’s all speculation until you receive an answer. Looking forward to the resolution.

 

[Kittitas George]

A few years back (maybe 10) two of the guys had trouble with 17 HMR semi autos, they looked similar to a 10-22, but 17HMR. One came apart, back to the factory, the next year it came apart and broke the stock. He wasn't hurt and received a refund and bought a CZ. Over the years we have shot thousands and thousands of 17 HMR rounds. No one has ever mentioned a split neck or problems other than above. We all shoot bolt actions, Cooper, Anschutz, CZ, I don't think anyone shoots a Savage, maybe a Remington. We've put a lot of bullets through the barrels shooting Sage Rats and gophers. I'll try to clean the 'carbon ring' in my Cooper, I wonder if that has anything to do with the smoothness of the machining.

 

[jjhall91]

A few years back (maybe 10) two of the guys had trouble with 17 HMR semi autos, they looked similar to a 10-22, but 17HMR. One came apart, back to the factory, the next year it came apart and broke the stock. He wasn't hurt and received a refund and bought a CZ. Over the years we have shot thousands and thousands of 17 HMR rounds. No one has ever mentioned a split neck or problems other than above. We all shoot bolt actions, Cooper, Anschutz, CZ, I don't think anyone shoots a Savage, maybe a Remington. We've put a lot of bullets through the barrels shooting Sage Rats and gophers. I'll try to clean the 'carbon ring' in my Cooper, I wonder if that has anything to do with the smoothness of the machining.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a lesser quality build (machining) would cause more carbon to collect and, therefore, would be more difficult to remove. A Savage isn't known for it's high quality, especially when compared to the likes of Anschutz.

It's impressive you guys have shot that many rounds without a split. A credit to your rifles. The Hornady rep (Shannon) told me due to the design and wall thickness of the brass it was not unusual to have a split now and then.

I haven't heard back from Savage at this point and it will probably take some time, but it should be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

 

[Kittitas George]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a lesser quality build (machining) would cause more carbon to collect and, therefore, would be more difficult to remove. A Savage isn't known for it's high quality, especially when compared to the likes of Anschutz.

It's impressive you guys have shot that many rounds without a split. A credit to your rifles. The Hornady rep (Shannon) told me due to the design and wall thickness of the brass it was not unusual to have a split now and then.

I haven't heard back from Savage at this point and it will probably take some time, but it should be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I don't know about the other guys, but I don't ever remember even checking my fired brass. Shoot, eject, load again, where's that next Sage Rat. As I said before no ones ever mentioned split necks. We will be headed for Montana in 2 1/2 weeks, I'll be sure to mention it and maybe we can check a little closer.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

i wonder if it is just work hardened brass.. do you anneal them? do you see this on new brass and reloaded brass??

Its a rimfire, mate

 

[NZ_Fclass]

A fellow that I used to hunt possums with had a Remington semi 17HMR. All the cases would come out bulged at the back. The useless thing was ejecting cases before the pressure dropped. To make matters worse, there was a flash in the ejection port,- the thing was still burning. And it still dropped possums fine.

 

[searcher]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a lesser quality build (machining) would cause more carbon to collect and, therefore, would be more difficult to remove. A Savage isn't known for it's high quality, especially when compared to the likes of Anschutz.

It's impressive you guys have shot that many rounds without a split. A credit to your rifles. The Hornady rep (Shannon) told me due to the design and wall thickness of the brass it was not unusual to have a split now and then.

I haven't heard back from Savage at this point and it will probably take some time, but it should be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

One of my buddies sent his Savage .17 hmr to Savage as it started throwing rounds all over. They said it had been converted to a smooth bore. They screwed on a new barrel - sent it back - no charge. Class act.

 

[searcher]

A fellow that I used to hunt possums with had a Remington semi 17HMR. All the cases would come out bulged at the back. The useless thing was ejecting cases before the pressure dropped. To make matters worse, there was a flash in the ejection port,- the thing was still burning. And it still dropped possums fine.

I have a semi-auto (Volquartson) and it shoots leaded .17 HMR just fine, though when I shoot the lighter bullets in the same manufacture (Hornady) lead-free ammo, the rear of the cases bulge very noticeably. These blow-back actions have just the right amount of weight, spring action to make them open after pressure drops. If the spring becomes weak, pressures rise due to extreme fouling, etc., the ejection cycle starts just a bit soon, allowing the unsupported base to expand a bit. These are problems which caused a lot of the semi-auto rimfire manufacturers to not do .17 HMR.

 

[searcher]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a lesser quality build (machining) would cause more carbon to collect and, therefore, would be more difficult to remove. A Savage isn't known for it's high quality, especially when compared to the likes of Anschutz.

It's impressive you guys have shot that many rounds without a split. A credit to your rifles. The Hornady rep (Shannon) told me due to the design and wall thickness of the brass it was not unusual to have a split now and then.

I haven't heard back from Savage at this point and it will probably take some time, but it should be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

I think it does - but I also think that it depends on how/when guys clean their rigs. Some guys shoot all season before doing a "real" cleaning. Some of us clean throughout the day if shooting as lot, if not at the end of the day. That stuff is noticeably harder to get out the very next day without at least a squirt of solvent in the chamber to work overnight. Cleaning those semi-autos is a PIT, so I always soak.

 

[jjhall91]

I think it does - but I also think that it depends on how/when guys clean their rigs. Some guys shoot all season before doing a "real" cleaning. Some of us clean throughout the day if shooting as lot, if not at the end of the day. That stuff is noticeably harder to get out the very next day without at least a squirt of solvent in the chamber to work overnight. Cleaning those semi-autos is a PIT, so I always soak.

I've been using a combination of kroil oil and Lucas, mostly. About every 4th time I use Bore Tech C4. I might go to J-B if I scope the chamber and it still looks bad.

Could I ask what you use for cleaning your 17? Especially what solvent you use in the chamber overnight.

 

[cromag77]

I have a stainless Savage 93 that started splitting cases and failure to extract. I cleaned and inspected the chamber but had to add a second extractor spring to reliably remove cases. I decided this was a headspace issue after I inspected the bolt locking surface and it showed wear. It uses the bolt handle lug for headspacing. I decided to slip a piece of paper in between the lug and receiver when I closed the bolt. Imprecise, I know, but the bolt closed on a cartridge easily. No more split cases. I haven't decided what to do as a permanent solution yet.

 

[jjhall91]

I have a stainless Savage 93 that started splitting cases and failure to extract. I cleaned and inspected the chamber but had to add a second extractor spring to reliably remove cases. I decided this was a headspace issue after I inspected the bolt locking surface and it showed wear. It uses the bolt handle lug for headspacing. I decided to slip a piece of paper in between the lug and receiver when I closed the bolt. Imprecise, I know, but the bolt closed on a cartridge easily. No more split cases. I haven't decided what to do as a permanent solution yet.

If you're considering adjusting headspace, I'm getting the headspace gauges for the 17HMR (backordered 3 to 6 weeks). I'd be glad to let you use them. My rifle will be at Savage for what I understand will be a very long time.

(I'm going to look into how to headspace this caliber as I hear it's not as easy as a centerfire.)

Just got this site from my son (https://www.reamerrentals.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=17HMR.g).

 

[toadfish]

i wonder if it is just work hardened brass.. do you anneal them? do you see this on new brass and reloaded brass??

Yep hand load's for the .17hmr are the go!! lol what's his name Arthur Langsford!

 

[jjhall91]

i wonder if it is just work hardened brass.. do you anneal them? do you see this on new brass and reloaded brass??

Kerry, in different words the Hornady rep alluded to the brass, by design, being thin and hard. This being necessary to accommodate the tiny dimensions of the chamber.

Your thought, while not applicable in this case, is a good one as I'm sure having a "softer" case would lead to less splits.

In any case, thanks for the thought. It is appreciated.

Jack

 

[jjhall91]

Yep hand load's for the .17hmr are the go!! lol what's his name Arthur Langsford!

Toadfish, it was a simple oversight. I'm sure Kerry Spurgin was thinking centerfire.