139 and 140 in the 6.5x47

[X-Caveman]

I don't shoot one myself, but know a few that do. They shoot some pretty stiff loads, and can't reach 2800 fps with the 139-140gr bullets. They have settled for something more suitable for that case. 123-130gr bullets.

What makes a 123-130g bullet more suitable for the 6.5x47 Lapua case?

Are all the people that easily get 2800 fps all shooting the wrong bullets?

The case capacity. That case has a capacity of 47 grains. Do you really expect people to believe that it will push a 140 grain bullet at the velocity a 6.5x284, or 6.5x55 AI will push the same 140 grain bullet ??? :
The velocities listed above by wildchild are more realistic

A tale of two barrels:

My first barrel was a Criterion Savage prefit 30 inch 6.5x47 Lapua. My load was 37.7g of Varget with 140g JLKs for a velocity of 2910fps with single digit ESs. My best score at a 1000 yard relay in no conditions at Oak Ridge was a 198-11Xs on the F-class target. I used Lapua brass with CCI 450 primers with the bullet 12 thous into the lands. I bought 200 Lapua cases and used those same cases until the barrel gave occasional flyers and would not hold what I thought is should at my mid-range matches. I retired that barrel at about 1600 rounds. (1600 rounds/200 cases = 8 reloads/case)

My second barrel is a Benchmark chambered in 6.5x47 Lapua using a "match" chamber (unsure freebore) chambered by Kevin Rayhill as a Savage prefit at 28 inches. My current load is H4350 at 40.2g with 140g Berger Hybrids 8 thous off the lands. This load chronographs at 2820 fps and the come-ups match that drop to 1000 yards. My best score in Midrange with this barrel (have 284 Win barrel for LR now) is 448-25X with a clean 150-11X at 300, a clean 150-11X at 600 yards and a 148-4X at 500 yards. I did not replace those same 200 cases that I shot in my first barrel and continue to shoot the same cases in this rifle. I now have approximately 1100 rounds through this barrel with losing exactly 4 cases (primer pocket). (1100 rounds/200 cases = 5.5 reloads/case).

So although it is impossible to shoot a 6.5 x 47 to 2800 fps, I have done so in two barrel with great precision and my cases have had on average 13.5 reloads/case in doing so. It is not my fault, nor the fault of Lapua, that the design of the 6.5x47 Lapua is more efficient than that of the 6.5x284 or 6.5x55 AI.

What is your next argument? Remember, you stated yourself that you do not even shoot this cartridge so why the problem with it?

Did you anneal your necks and shoulders? If so how often? I like what I'm reading about the brass longevity!

On a side note (and I'm sure most here know this), the 47 in 6.5x47 is not the powder capacity. I don't know if that's what was meant above, but it's the length of the brass in MM. Perhaps it does have 47gr of water capacity of something - I don't know. I certainly can't get anywhere near that much powder in one (nor have a reason top want to).

 

[kyreloader]

I don't shoot one myself, but know a few that do. They shoot some pretty stiff loads, and can't reach 2800 fps with the 139-140gr bullets. They have settled for something more suitable for that case. 123-130gr bullets.

What makes a 123-130g bullet more suitable for the 6.5x47 Lapua case?

Are all the people that easily get 2800 fps all shooting the wrong bullets?

The case capacity. That case has a capacity of 47 grains. Do you really expect people to believe that it will push a 140 grain bullet at the velocity a 6.5x284, or 6.5x55 AI will push the same 140 grain bullet ??? :
The velocities listed above by wildchild are more realistic

A tale of two barrels:

My first barrel was a Criterion Savage prefit 30 inch 6.5x47 Lapua. My load was 37.7g of Varget with 140g JLKs for a velocity of 2910fps with single digit ESs. My best score at a 1000 yard relay in no conditions at Oak Ridge was a 198-11Xs on the F-class target. I used Lapua brass with CCI 450 primers with the bullet 12 thous into the lands. I bought 200 Lapua cases and used those same cases until the barrel gave occasional flyers and would not hold what I thought is should at my mid-range matches. I retired that barrel at about 1600 rounds. (1600 rounds/200 cases = 8 reloads/case)

My second barrel is a Benchmark chambered in 6.5x47 Lapua using a "match" chamber (unsure freebore) chambered by Kevin Rayhill as a Savage prefit at 28 inches. My current load is H4350 at 40.2g with 140g Berger Hybrids 8 thous off the lands. This load chronographs at 2820 fps and the come-ups match that drop to 1000 yards. My best score in Midrange with this barrel (have 284 Win barrel for LR now) is 448-25X with a clean 150-11X at 300, a clean 150-11X at 600 yards and a 148-4X at 500 yards. I did not replace those same 200 cases that I shot in my first barrel and continue to shoot the same cases in this rifle. I now have approximately 1100 rounds through this barrel with losing exactly 4 cases (primer pocket). (1100 rounds/200 cases = 5.5 reloads/case).

So although it is impossible to shoot a 6.5 x 47 to 2800 fps, I have done so in two barrel with great precision and my cases have had on average 13.5 reloads/case in doing so. It is not my fault, nor the fault of Lapua, that the design of the 6.5x47 Lapua is more efficient than that of the 6.5x284 or 6.5x55 AI.

What is your next argument? Remember, you stated yourself that you do not even shoot this cartridge so why the problem with it?

Did you anneal your necks and shoulders? If so how often? I like what I'm reading about the brass longevity!

On a side note (and I'm sure most here know this), the 47 in 6.5x47 is not the powder capacity. I don't know if that's what was meant above, but it's the length of the brass in MM. Perhaps it does have 47gr of water capacity of something - I don't know. I certainly can't get anywhere near that much powder in one (nor have a reason top want to).

Alloy,

I anneal after each firing. It helps me with consistent neck tension which helps me on the target regarding vertical. It is an added bonus that it helps with brass life!

 

[Erik Cortina]

My 6.5x47 has always shot 139 gr. bullets and lately has shot 136's, the slowest I have ever run it was at 2,890 fps. Most of the time I run it around 2,920 fps out of a 32" barrel. Brass life is great. I have shot RL17 and N550 mainly, but will be testing N150 soon.

I have seen CSS shoot, and he and his gun make a good team.

 

[DukeDuke]

H4350. there are a few loads posted that are more than I load in mine by a few tenths.
I guess I have a "fast" barrel ;D

I'm shooting the 140 BTLRM Bergers 26409

thank you!

 

[B Mize]

I have seen CSS shoot, and he and his gun make a good team.
[/quote]

And the couple times we have shot in the same match you out shot me in the agg's.

 

[KWeigel]

I don't shoot one myself, but know a few that do. They shoot some pretty stiff loads, and can't reach 2800 fps with the 139-140gr bullets. They have settled for something more suitable for that case. 123-130gr bullets.

I shoot 140 hybrids at 2843. Would be able to go faster if I bushed my firing pin. cci 450, h4350 just above 40grs.

 

[22BRGUY]

Hope I'm not hi-jacking here but this post is very interesting. I look at the results several of you are getting and can't help but wonder why the 6.5x47 is able to obtain these velocities where the 6.5 Creedmoor with around 6 grains more powder capacity has a difficult time going much faster. I realize the 6.5x47 by it's design is very efficient with the small rifle primer and compact powder/ brass design, but holy smokes 6 grains of powder is about a 12% increase. Just asking for opinions, not arguments. Thanks OP and all others.

 

[mikecr]

That would be barrel length, powder, and pressure.
When you account for these there is nothing unpredictable or different about it.

 

[22BRGUY]

That would be barrel length, powder, and pressure.
When you account for these there is nothing unpredictable or different about it.

Thanks Mike...point noted.

 

[Laurie]

That would be barrel length, powder, and pressure.
When you account for these there is nothing unpredictable or different about it.

Well, let's take these factors into account and run a QuickLOAD charge table run for the trio. All three with 140gn Berger VLD at their SAAMI / CIP max COALs (2.800" in all cases) and we'll assume that they are throated accordingly. All three with a 30-inch barrel. .260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor at their SAAMI max allowed chambers pressures of 60,190 psi, and the '47L at its higher CIP allowed 63,090 psi.

The Charge run table was also set up to allow compressed loads up to a 108% fill-ratio level.

The predicted MVs for the 'top ten' powders in each case (the program set to list predictions from the maximum MV obtained in a declining order) are:

6.5X47L: ....... 2,906 - 2,938 fps (several charges compressed at the 104-105% level)
.260 Rem: ..... 2,920 - 2,958 fps
6.5 H. CMR: ... 2,933 - 2,994 fps

260 and 6.5 Creedmoor had few compressed loads, and when compressed barely so.
All three provided 99-100% charge burns within a 30-inch barrel showing efficient combinations and eight or nine out of ten combinations produced the maximum allowed pressure levels.

What is also interesting is that the 'top 10' powders were (unsurprisingly) the same, not unexpected given all three cartridges are in the same case capacity to bore area / PMax bracket. What is also interesting is that only two (Re17 and Viht N550) came into this listing that had been mentioned in the previous posts - others may give top thermodynamic results from the trio, but apparently don't meet other precision shooting criteria for things such as consistency over long strings of shots, temperature tolerance, small ES/SDs, and of course precision. The two most frequently mentioned numbers, H4350 and H. VarGet were somewhere further down, H4350 at a theoretical max MV of 2,862 fps but needing a charge that produced 107% fill-ratio, and VarGet still lower at 2,828 fps. (In the '47L that is.)

Remember, these are ABSOLUTE MAX allowed pressures and don't take sweet spots or any other considerations into account that may see loads varied by the shooter.

From some of the loads I see posted on this and other forums for VarGet in particular, I'm pretty satisfied that some 6.5X47L shooters are loading to proof pressures, maybe beyond. The very strong Lapua small primer case neither shows some degree of over-pressure in a well chambered, tightly breeched rifle on firing, nor does it exhibit other high-pressure symptoms as early as its two rivals, primarily through primer pocket expansion. (I'm equally sure some 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor users abuse their loads too, but you'll junk the brass a lot quicker with this pair.)

I personally prefer lighter bullets in .260 Rem and the '47 and my rifles are throated a bit shorter to suit. If people want to use 139-142gn bullets and have their rifles set up for them, and they're happy - all good and well. I was interested to see the 2-inch 1,000 yard record group shot in Australia featured in today's Bulletin used the 123gn Scenar. I think that there is a 'psychological thing' in play with many users of these cartridges and the '47L in particular that says itsy bitsy little bullets weighing a mere 123gn just CANNOT be any good at 1,000 yards - well, obviously they can.

I've yet to get my new Creedmoor run in and loads worked up, but it's got a pretty well standard match chamber for the cartridge. So, I'm looking forward to seeing how it manages with the best of the 140gn loads at long distance. Vince Bottomley and I intend to do a side by side single-session 600 and 1,000 yard 260 v Creedmoor v '47L shoot-off at Diggle Ranges in northern England later this summer.

 

[B Mize]

Ive got a 6.5 creedmoor with a 24" Bartlien barrel build by GAP. It is an 8.5 twist and will not shoot the Berger 140's .
I load the 139 Lapuas for it with 42.5gr of H4350 and it's moving 2875fps. Primer pockets are still tight after 5 loadings.
I think with a 30" barrel 2950fps would be easy to obtain.
I've been playing with it on and off for 3 years and no matter the powder, charge, primer, oal, etc. I can not get the spreads unded 35fps for 10 shots..
I only have a 100yd range to test at and have had no problem getting it to shoot small groups, but I know it needs a lower ES before stretching it out to 1k.

I have 4 47L and each of them were very easy to get ES under 15 with 2 of them under 10 for 10 shots.
I think the small primer and compressed loads are what makes the 47L easy to work up load for.
I'm sure it is on the upper end of the pressure limit, but primers are still round on the edges, brass is lasting forever.

 

[mikecr]

24" is too short for the 6.5Creedmore. If you had atleast a 26" barrel your ES could be lower.
The 6.5x47L has lower capacity and can get away with a shorter barrel. But I would use +26" of barrel for it anyway.

 

[B Mize]

Live and learn.....

It was my first custom rifle and now I know better.

 

[MahtewsSB]

zombie thread but i wanted to be able to find the info again easily...

 

[alphapygmy]

I'll add my info. Criterion prefit 28" bull. 140 Berger Hybrids .010 jump, ~40 gr. H4350, CCI 450 for 2825 fps. ES averages around 12, SD around 4. 123 SMK do 2980 with .020 jump and ~39 gr. RL15 and CCI 450. ES under 15, SD around 5. For whatever reason I got much better ES and SD with CCI 450 vs BR4.