110 sierra bullets

[FrankG]

Frank, were you at the top? did you have pressure? let me know how you do with the 110's I will have to wait till after the national to try them..... jim

I didn’t try loading them any hotter as of yet. I ran the same load with the 107smk and those gave me velocities of 2868fps avg. That was for a 10 shot group thru the chronograph. ES 19 and a SD of 7.

So to answer your other question...no heavy bolt lift, flat primers etc...

When I load up the 110smk I’ll post how they work.

Later, Frank

 

[Falfan2017]

Tried the 110s in a 7.5 dasher with h4895 and rl 16, rl15 and varget. I had some .2” groups at 100 doing load development with the 110s and rl16 going 3000 FPS jumping 15k. Groups jumping 10k were about the same. However it was a vertical .2” at 100 and when i took it out to 600 and 1000 in f class matches the vertical blew up on me and I eventually gave up on that bullet.

If I had a 7 twist barrel I might try em again. That rl16 load was also compressed which was a pain to get consistent seating depths. They might work better for f class with a 7 twist 6mm gt or something like that

 

[Laurie]

Tried the 110s in a 7.5 dasher with h4895 and rl 16, rl15 and varget. I had some .2” groups at 100 doing load development with the 110s and rl16 going 3000 FPS jumping 15k. Groups jumping 10k were about the same. However it was a vertical .2” at 100 and when i took it out to 600 and 1000 in f class matches the vertical blew up on me and I eventually gave up on that bullet.

I had just that experience with the 110's 7mm big brother, the 0.284" 183gn in the straight 284. (There was no twist issue, their being used in a gain-twist Bartlein 1:8" pitch, so plenty high rotation.) I found elevation to be the bugbear throughout and seating depth / jump critical in affecting it. Like you I got down to small 100 yard C to C figures, but they were still elevation shaped and long distance performance was unsatisfactory.

I mention this bullet as a raft of these new pointed SMKs are one design 'scaled' between calibres: the 110gn 243; 150gn 264; 183gn 284, and almost certainly the 230gn 308 (with Sierra's new 200gn 308 model of very similar design but altered to knock 30gn out presumably by reducing its length a little).

The quartet have very long uber-VLD noses with radii values in the high 20s (calibres) and very low Rt/R shank to nose junction ratios according to Bryan Litz for those models included in the latest edition of his Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets. For instance, the nose radius of the 110gn 6mm is 27.98 calibres and the Rt/R 0.39 (compared to 11.06 calibres / 0.89 for the slightly updated and pointed 107gn MK). Near identical values apply to the 183gn 7mm and comparison against the older and very easy to tune 175gn MK model. (For Rt/R, 1.0=perfect tangent ogive; 0.50 = traditional Bill Knox/Walt Berger VLD.)

I won't say that they won't perform, but these super-long form / super-VLD shape bullets appear to be exceptionally finicky and tricky to 'tune'. Many of those who try them simply give up after some unsatisfactory range-testing sessions if hearsay is to be believed.

I do have a concern that Sierra has in effect introduced a (very) new-form design range under a longstanding product name with little or no advice on the changes and how to use them other than in recommended rifling twist rates. There is little in common between the 107 and 110gn sixes; 175/180 and 183gn sevens and so on and IMO they should be marketed under different names as different / distinct lines.

 

[FrankG]

Laurie and Falfan2017, Sometimes Mark and I talk and look at customers targets and when given the load data we feel the loads are too hot per say and the load will spit/throw shots. Might not be necessarily the bullets causing the issues?

Sometimes yes you can get the velocity you want the but the load is too hot per say and will cause accuracy issues.

When I was shooting 115 Berger VLD 6mm’s in a 6x47 Lapua I always felt those bullets where hard to keep in tune. As Laurie said I had plenty of twist on the barrel. At short range they would shoot excellent but at a 1k yards a 1gr bump in the powder charge and my vertical would go from .3moa to .7moa. So I always ran that load at the 1gr less powder charge.

The 107smk never gave me that issue in the 6x47 or other rounds for that fact. I had the same problem with two different guns with the 115’s. In the end the consistency from box to box/lot on the 115’s I gave up on. I always seem to be chasing them to get them to shoot good/consistently.

 

[johara1]

Laurie and Falfan2017, Sometimes Mark and I talk and look at customers targets and when given the load data we feel the loads are too hot per say and the load will spit/throw shots. Might not be necessarily the bullets causing the issues?

Sometimes yes you can get the velocity you want the but the load is too hot per say and will cause accuracy issues.

When I was shooting 115 Berger VLD 6mm’s in a 6x47 Lapua I always felt those bullets where hard to keep in tune. As Laurie said I had plenty of twist on the barrel. At short range they would shoot excellent but at a 1k yards a 1gr bump in the powder charge and my vertical would go from .3moa to .7moa. So I always ran that load at the 1gr less powder charge.

The 107smk never gave me that issue in the 6x47 or other rounds for that fact. I had the same problem with two different guns with the 115’s. In the end the consistency from box to box/lot on the 115’s I gave up on. I always seem to be chasing them to get them to shoot good/consistently.

Frank, Did or do you sort bullets? The lot of Bergers I have to test are all over the place, while the 110 SMK's are very uniform. Back a long time ago, I shot the 115DTAC and they shot well at 1000... I had groups of 2-3 " but they were nothing but a long 107..... jim

 

[Falfan2017]

Laurie and Falfan2017, Sometimes Mark and I talk and look at customers targets and when given the load data we feel the loads are too hot per say and the load will spit/throw shots. Might not be necessarily the bullets causing the issues?

Sometimes yes you can get the velocity you want the but the load is too hot per say and will cause accuracy issues.

When I was shooting 115 Berger VLD 6mm’s in a 6x47 Lapua I always felt those bullets where hard to keep in tune. As Laurie said I had plenty of twist on the barrel. At short range they would shoot excellent but at a 1k yards a 1gr bump in the powder charge and my vertical would go from .3moa to .7moa. So I always ran that load at the 1gr less powder charge.

The 107smk never gave me that issue in the 6x47 or other rounds for that fact. I had the same problem with two different guns with the 115’s. In the end the consistency from box to box/lot on the 115’s I gave up on. I always seem to be chasing them to get them to shoot good/consistently.

I tried speeds from 2800 all the way up to 3000 with 4 different powders and the only halfway decent groups at 100 yards were the reloader 16 going around 3000. That was the only load I took out to mid and long range so it’s possible a slower load might have held together better but based on the 100 yard groups it didn’t look like it would. They were almost all vertically strung.
This was for f class and I was looking for high bc but ended up using the 105 hammer which tuned very easily with a very wide node and the load has held up for several months now at 600 and 1000 with minimal tweaking. Accuracy beats bc in my book especially at 600 with a small x ring.

 

[Laurie]

Laurie and Falfan2017, Sometimes Mark and I talk and look at customers targets and when given the load data we feel the loads are too hot per say and the load will spit/throw shots. Might not be necessarily the bullets causing the issues?

That's an interesting observation. In my case with the 183 sevens in 284 Win though, it was actually a fairly mild load, the combination offering ~2,740 fps (from a 30-inch barrel) giving best initial results. With the super-VLD front end the first test lots were tried in the lands, but this produced bad elevations even at 100, some charge weights giving true vertical strings up to an inch. On the other hand, MV consistency was superb, one 4-round batch having three shots with a single value and the 4th only 1 fps different.

So I took the least bad of the bunch and played with seating depths getting a dramatic group size / shape improvement at 40 thou' jump. (Interestingly, MVs remained the same with 5 out of 6 deeper settings albeit with larger ES values than before until I went to the full 40 thou' jump when they dropped by 12 fps - what Lapua / Viht said many years ago, but the opposite of what most handloaders believe and what they believe Quickload also leads them to expect.) This gave a sub 0.3" group but still with some vertical. At 900 yards in a match, this showed up in worse vertical than my usual load, not terrible but not as good as it needs to be. I could go back to 100 and see if yet larger jumps tunes it out ..... but it's time, travel, and most important wastefully using up the remaining life of a barrel that performs very well and is now reserved for longer distance matches.

 

[FrankG]

Frank, Did or do you sort bullets? The lot of Bergers I have to test are all over the place, while the 110 SMK's are very uniform. Back a long time ago, I shot the 115DTAC and they shot well at 1000... I had groups of 2-3 " but they were nothing but a long 107..... jim

Jim, I have in the past by weight, by length and that has been overall length and by base to ogive etc...what I considered at times the bad bullets still loaded but kept them segregated and yet shot some of the best groups or scores have been shot. So at times go figure!

I do check bullets to see what/how they are. In my opinion the SMK (tipped bullets) and Hornady ELDM’s that I have and especially the new Hornady ATIP’s have been very consistent. As far as tipping bullets goes Sierra has it figured out! The complaints I hear on the plastic tip Hornady’s all I can say is I haven’t had any problems with them and some of the theory’s on tips melting etc...I haven’t seen it and testing that has been done by other sources couldn’t get it to happen. We’ve done testing on bullets/ammo at times where the lot supplied to us was supposedly a problem. Either where suppose to be bullet failures or accuracy issues. A good example was last year we were asked by Hornady guys to shoot 6.5PRC ammo with the 147ELDM’s and the bullets where supposedly blowing up. We shot almost a hundred rounds of the ammo out to distances of 1000 yards. Same rifle with no cleaning during shooting. Not a single bullet failure.

I’ve never really found consistency with the Berger’s. Please don’t take that as hacking on them as I’ve shot excellent scores and groups with Berger’s but I pulled my hair out on trying to sort them in anyway at times.

I’m not a bullet maker and don’t claim to know everything and anything about bullet making. Mark at work makes his own 6mm bullets for his PPC guns and holds two or three records and he knows more than I do by far and we talk a lot of times about it like anything else gun related.

With all that being said and before any one flames me on this bullet makers bullets failing etc....please everyone keep in mind....when someone is having a problem either with bullets and or barrels etc....you/we don’t always get the whole picture of what is happening. I’ve seen where the bullet/ammo gets the blame but the shooters barrel is junk and is the problem or his loads and or loading procedure and that’s a whole different chapter in the book.

Later, Frank

 

[AckleymanII]

Great post, Frank

The whole picture...what a can of worms....

 

[johara1]

Frank, that is why I have to see for myself with the 110's. At 1000 BR. it had better shoot small ..... jim

 

[Tim-o-thy]

These bullets have been hard to get shooting in my 6BRA 1/7.5 Twist. Have some groups that start at point of aim then a flier then third shot will go into first hole fourth into second and then more random fliers. Shot a group tonight with them where shots 2,3,4 all went into the same hole and shots 1 and 5 were fliers about 3/4 at 4:00 and 10:00 of the group. Weird.

Same for me, I called Sierra and they told me in nicest way it was my rifle and to go f myself. I had some that wouldn’t make it 100 yards in a gun that shoots everything in 1 hole at that distance. I’m done with Sierra

 

[calgarycanada]

I didn’t try loading them any hotter as of yet. I ran the same load with the 107smk and those gave me velocities of 2868fps avg. That was for a 10 shot group thru the chronograph. ES 19 and a SD of 7.

So to answer your other question...no heavy bolt lift, flat primers etc...

When I load up the 110smk I’ll post how they work.

Later, Frank

Hello Frank
Did you explore these bullets any further? Just wondering if you got any information. Thanks

 

[JEFFPPC]

I tried them last year in a 7.5 twist out of a 6brx. Would not shoot small except on occasion. Trying them right now in a 7 twist , same load as I shoot 107s and with only 3 trips at 100 and 1 group at 300 they are doing very well. Snuck one 3 shot group at 300 through the wind gusts, 3 shots tight cloverleaf measured. 310. If it repeats The 7 twist is the answer for me. My 107 sight setting was a click high at 300. Maybe condition, maybe bc.

 

[dhagerty40]

I am shooting them in a 15" barreled XP-100 (specialty pistol) with a PacNor 7 twist barrel and getting great accuracy with the 110gr SMK's. Loads for mine though would be useless for anybody else's use here though.

It is looking more and more like the trick with this bullet is a 7 twist rate.

 

[1shot]

I'm running a 7.5 twist and I think the answer is to have enough twist for the altitude you shoot at. I'm at 1,190 ASL and have shot several cleans at 600 yds. with this bullet out of a 6SLR going 3,050 +-. Took the rifle to St Louis, Mo. where the elevation is 545 ASL and it was very ho hum. Dropped a few points, but the X count was very low.
I have experienced this behavior before in a different rifle but in the reverse. I think a 7.5 will work above 1,000 ASL but for them to shoot small I'd use a 7.25 or a 7.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[johara1]

I shot both the 110 SMK and 110 Atips out of a 7 twist kreiger and they both shot excellent from the barrel around 2920 with both bullets out of a 6br imp. Rechambered it to 6x47 and you couldn't hit the side of a barn if you were locked in it..... one day the load would work and the same load the next wouldn't..... jim

 

[swd]

I'm running a 7.5 twist and I think the answer is to have enough twist for the altitude you shoot at. I'm at 1,190 ASL and have shot several cleans at 600 yds. with this bullet out of a 6SLR going 3,050 +-. Took the rifle to St Louis, Mo. where the elevation is 545 ASL and it was very ho hum. Dropped a few points, but the X count was very low.
I have experienced this behavior before in a different rifle but in the reverse. I think a 7.5 will work above 1,000 ASL but for them to shoot small I'd use a 7.25 or a 7.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

I have a 7.5” Krieger and a 7.3” Broughton that both shoot them well at 220’ ASL. I think they can just be a finicky bullet and different lot to lot.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have a 7.5” Krieger and a 7.3” Broughton that both shoot them well at 220’ ASL. I think they can just be a finicky bullet and different lot to lot.

At this point tuning has been very easy . I have measured 2 lots with the same numbers from both so at this early date I am pleased with them. With the 7.5 I was thinking the finicky route but so far with the 7 twist it has been easy.

 

[swd]

At this point tuning has been very easy . I have measured 2 lots with the same numbers from both so at this early date I am pleased with them. With the 7.5 I was thinking the finicky route but so far with the 7 twist it has been easy.

All the ones I have are very early ones to maybe 1.5 years into production. Some of those lots vary a bit. When they're working well they definitely bring the BRX And Dasher into the 6.5 world

 

[JEFFPPC]

I was in the 6.5 world. More recoil, poorer results. I am happily back in the 6mm world. I have been very happy with the tipped 107 and 110 tipped SMK. I have been told they eliminated a maintenance shut down due to the current demand. If that is the case I hope profit does not sink quality. Right now they have been turning out an excellent product.