109 Long Range Hybrid vs 110 A-TIP

[johara1]

I bought 2000 109s to try out. Got a good deal on them on a sale for .36 a piece. As long as they are as accurate as the 107 smk I don’t mind paying a little more especially for the increase in BC

You are right sir, The cost of shooting a match is way more than a few cents a bullet..... Never leave anything on the table........ jim

 

[KS6mm]

One question that I have always been curious of is when shooting in windy conditions, do higher BC bullets relate to more hits on target than lower BC bullets, speaking in terms of PRS where you aren’t necessarily shooting for groups but just impacts on target. Or is it better marksmanship than anything

 

[johara1]

Time of flight, so less wind deflection. Take a 110 gr. 6mm bullet with a BC of over .600 at 2920 and a 105 with a BC.530 at 3000 the slow one uses 2 minutes less elevation to go 1000 yds from a 100 yd. zero. so it holds speed better, so less wind deflection...... jim

 

[dmoran]

@KS6mm
While increasing BC will aid against oncoming drag forces, myself repeatedly have found "raw accuracy" to be trump over BC. But it does take certain amounts of BC to get it done, and dependent of the distance.

 

[johara1]

The big plus is when you have them both...... jim

 

[KS6mm]

@dmoran I guess we will have to see which is more accurate, the 107 smk or 109 hybrid.

 

[Sheldon N]

One question that I have always been curious of is when shooting in windy conditions, do higher BC bullets relate to more hits on target than lower BC bullets, speaking in terms of PRS where you aren’t necessarily shooting for groups but just impacts on target. Or is it better marksmanship than anything

From the perspective of PRS I think to think of it this way... run the 3mph wind drift value for your chosen bullet/speed. That is how much you will miss by if you get your initial wind call incorrect, or if there is a sudden change in the wind during the 90-120 seconds while you are shooting a stage. The math works out the same whether it is 3mph vs 6mph or if it is 12mph vs 15mph wind.

Example (1000 yards, 3mph wind call error):

110 A-Tip at 2850 fps .320 G7 = 19.4 inch drift
105 Hybrid at 2940 fps .278 G7 = 22.4 inch drift

So the better ballistics of the A-tip get you about 3 inches less drift at 1k, for a 3mph wind call error. Maybe that's an edge hit, if your steel target was 40" wide.

To me what is more important is accuracy, since so much of what we do is make corrections off the prior impact. The more accurate your load, the more accurate your wind correction will be on the follow up shot. Example would be a gun that is 1MOA at 1000 yards. You have a miss that is a "flyer" at the left side of the 1 MOA distribution. You correct for that as if it was wind and the next shot is a right side "flyer". With no change in the wind at all you just moved your point of aim off by 1/2 MOA and missed by 1 MOA. Add shifting winds to that and you can see how it would create even more problems for getting an accurate shot on target.

I'd take accuracy over ballistics any day.

 

[Laurie]

I'd take accuracy over ballistics any day.

Hallelujah !!

To add a\ littl to your excellent 1,000 yard example. The half-MOA inherent precision based aiming error is 5.3-inches, so is greater than the 'saving' on wind. Of course, if both bullets give equal precision, the BC improvement remains real.

A-TIPs are a bit (!!) pricey for me and I'm not a fan of some recent bullets that appear to need ever faster twists.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Hornady makes a fine sizing lube but their bullets are mehhhh.... I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

 

[KS6mm]

@Sheldon N that is a good point. If the accuracy isn’t any better with the 109 vs the 107 there is nothing more to be had that can’t be corrected for. That 3 inch difference with a better bullet doesn’t mean anything when you are talking almost 2 feet of drift for a misread on the wind. That just means your miss will 3 inches closer to the target. So if you have 2 bullets that will both print the same groups at 1000 but one is a .262 BC vs a .292 BC I don’t see there is a real advantage to performance but that one will drop and drift less than the other assuming a similar velocity. Or am I wrong in my thinking

 

[R.Olds]

So....had a chance to test A Tips and 109's @600yds. Nice calm conditions. I shot 2, 10 shot groups with my go to 115 VLD load, both those groups were under 1 moa so I know the rifle is shooting OK.
I had 5 A Tip rounds left over from the other day so I sent them down range, that 5 shot group was damm near 2 moa!.....no wonder I was all over the target the other day, besides having the swirling winds. When I tested this same load @ 200yds, it was shooting 3/8 moa. Not sure what I am doing wrong with these things.
I then shot 8, 5 shot groups with the 109's, 2 groups with .010 jump and 2 with .020 and charge weights of 43.8 to 44.2, all shot well but the 43.8 shot just over 1/2 moa. velocity at the target avg. 2029 and an 11.9 SD.
I need to do some more work with loads, but starting to lean towards the 109's.

 

[KS6mm]

@R.Olds what twist barrel?

 

[R.Olds]

sorry, its 26" Bartlein, .237 5R 7.5.
I was wondering if the 110's may not be stable, but when I looked at the paper, it had no tumblers in it.
With a charge of 44.0 of 2831SC, the A Tips speed at the target was avg 2136 with a SD of 30 for just 5 shots.....something isnt very happy

 

[KS6mm]

Could be powder, what case are you pushing these with?

 

[R.Olds]

Could be powder, what case are you pushing these with?

6 SLR....these were all run with Winchester LRP brass with BR2's. I also have some Alpha SRP brass to play with someday

 

[johara1]

So....had a chance to test A Tips and 109's @600yds. Nice calm conditions. I shot 2, 10 shot groups with my go to 115 VLD load, both those groups were under 1 moa so I know the rifle is shooting OK.
I had 5 A Tip rounds left over from the other day so I sent them down range, that 5 shot group was damm near 2 moa!.....no wonder I was all over the target the other day, besides having the swirling winds. When I tested this same load @ 200yds, it was shooting 3/8 moa. Not sure what I am doing wrong with these things.
I then shot 8, 5 shot groups with the 109's, 2 groups with .010 jump and 2 with .020 and charge weights of 43.8 to 44.2, all shot well but the 43.8 shot just over 1/2 moa. velocity at the target avg. 2029 and an 11.9 SD.
I need to do some more work with loads, but starting to lean towards the 109's.

1 MOA. and the rifle is ok? and you posting results on bullets ? do you use wind flags? my test are at .1 MOA with the A tips @ 2920..... it was in a 7 twist barrel and I'm now breaking in a 7.83 to see if the 7 twist is needed, even though Hornaday say 8 will work. The A tip seems a lot easier to tune than the 110SMK...... jim

 

[R.Olds]

1 MOA. and the rifle is ok? and you posting results on bullets ? do you use wind flags? my test are at .1 MOA with the A tips @ 2920..... it was in a 7 twist barrel and I'm now breaking in a 7.83 to see if the 7 twist is needed, even though Hornaday say 8 will work. The A tip seems a lot easier to tune than the 110SMK...... jim

So you are shooting .1 moa @600yds ? must be nice shooting 20X cleans all day long..... Yes there were wind flags, but as stated it was calm conditions. I wasnt saying under 1 moa was great, just that it gave me something to compare the Atips to. Guess I will just sit back and let the really good shots like yourself talk.....have at it....

 

[kyreloader]

So you are shooting .1 moa @600yds ? must be nice shooting 20X cleans all day long..... Yes there were wind flags, but as stated it was calm conditions. I wasnt saying under 1 moa was great, just that it gave me something to compare the Atips to. Guess I will just sit back and let the really good shots like yourself talk.....have at it....

https://www.accurateshooter.com/competition/ohara-sets-1000-yard-ibs-agg-records/

Please know whom you are talking about before you start slinging mud. Jim has shot ATips into 0.1MOA at 100 yards, can’t see anywhere where he said he shot 0.1 MOA at 1000.

 

[AJC]

https://www.accurateshooter.com/competition/ohara-sets-1000-yard-ibs-agg-records/

Please know whom you are talking about before you start slinging mud. Jim has shot ATips into 0.1MOA at 100 yards, can’t see anywhere where he said he shot 0.1 MOA at 1000.

Not even that, why are posts moving to callouts. Stick to being constructive and informative.

 

[newbieshooter]

From the perspective of PRS I think to think of it this way... run the 3mph wind drift value for your chosen bullet/speed. That is how much you will miss by if you get your initial wind call incorrect, or if there is a sudden change in the wind during the 90-120 seconds while you are shooting a stage. The math works out the same whether it is 3mph vs 6mph or if it is 12mph vs 15mph wind.

Example (1000 yards, 3mph wind call error):

110 A-Tip at 2850 fps .320 G7 = 19.4 inch drift
105 Hybrid at 2940 fps .278 G7 = 22.4 inch drift

So the better ballistics of the A-tip get you about 3 inches less drift at 1k, for a 3mph wind call error. Maybe that's an edge hit, if your steel target was 40" wide.

To me what is more important is accuracy, since so much of what we do is make corrections off the prior impact. The more accurate your load, the more accurate your wind correction will be on the follow up shot. Example would be a gun that is 1MOA at 1000 yards. You have a miss that is a "flyer" at the left side of the 1 MOA distribution. You correct for that as if it was wind and the next shot is a right side "flyer". With no change in the wind at all you just moved your point of aim off by 1/2 MOA and missed by 1 MOA. Add shifting winds to that and you can see how it would create even more problems for getting an accurate shot on target.

I'd take accuracy over ballistics any day.

Agreed, take accuracy over ballistics. Maybe I missed it somewhere - just wondering why the 105 hybrid was used for comparison (instead of the 109 hybrid)?