100 yard (real world) repeatable accuracy for 22 LR

[Tim Slater]

Hi Ken,

Thank you. The Wilkes Barr is rather nice looking range. It reminds me of Piddlehinton, near Dorchester, but with trees. How far does it go back? It's odd to see a joint smallbore and fullbore rifle range in the UK.

 

[LR22]

Kevin! You have good contacts to Lapua as we have also.Indoor shooting it doesnt matter very much how fast your 22 LR ammo is when talking wind drift.
But outdoor there is.We have lobby Lapua to make little slower 22 LR ammo.Prone shooters & BR shooters need those.
From old ammos I have never seen smaller wind drift to 50 meter as old Lapua Subsonic HP.And to 100 meter old Lapua Scoremax with its 48 grain bullet & 315 m/s (1033 feet/s) Vo speed has smaller wind drift.

I am not ballistic expert and I dont know how much of 22 LR bullets wind drift is coming from bullets round/s speed? Now near all barrels has 16-16,5" rifling.

About 25 years ago I didnt understand that when we are moving under speed of sound we have smaller wind drift with slower ammo.Scoremax shooted from 15" rifling was top to 100 meter.
Then I read Mr McCoys studies and understood this.

Kevin! You are "heavy name" and I hope that you also lobby Lapua to make to us little slower 22 LR ammo.

BR, Timo from Finland

 

[dutch14]

According to my ballistics program, a 22 lr bullet leaving the barrel at 1070 fps will drift 3.11 inches in a 7 mph crosswind from 3:00 at 100 yds.

 

[Tony K Harper]

Kevin! You have good contacts to Lapua as we have also.Indoor shooting it doesnt matter very much how fast your 22 LR ammo is when talking wind drift.
But outdoor there is.We have lobby Lapua to make little slower 22 LR ammo.Prone shooters & BR shooters need those.
From old ammos I have never seen smaller wind drift to 50 meter as old Lapua Subsonic HP.And to 100 meter old Lapua Scoremax with its 48 grain bullet & 315 m/s (1033 feet/s) Vo speed has smaller wind drift.

I am not ballistic expert and I dont know how much of 22 LR bullets wind drift is coming from bullets round/s speed? Now near all barrels has 16-16,5" rifling.

About 25 years ago I didnt understand that when we are moving under speed of sound we have smaller wind drift with slower ammo.Scoremax shooted from 15" rifling was top to 100 meter.
Then I read Mr McCoys studies and understood this.

Kevin! You are "heavy name" and I hope that you also lobby Lapua to make to us little slower 22 LR ammo.

BR, Timo from Finland

Same problem we had years ago with Federal Ultra match. That was the only real U.S. challenger to Eley and Lapua for match quality ammo since the old, old, old, days of Winchester offerings in our grandfathers time.

UM1 was just too fast. Indoors shot lights out. Outdoors in conditions it was a nightmare with wind drift. Federal was never able to slow it down enough. The company was sold and the new owners took the company in another direction.

The U.S. research ended and has not been taken up by any other U.S. company.

You can't get CCI or any of the other U.S. ammo makers interested in competing with Eley or Lapua in the match quality ammo market.

Their story is we can sell all the ammo we can make now, why would we enter a market we can't support.
Sad, but I guess that is the way it is.
TKH

 

[gme]

I bought a Tikka T1X and bedded it to a Bell and Carlson M40 stock. I have shot about 20 brands of ammo from cheapies to 11$ a box and have yet to be blown away with 100 yard accuracy. I have been blown away with some 50 and 60 yard accuracy so I feel like I am probably asking for more than might be possible.

I think I am probably expecting too much and before I drop any money on a custom barrel I would like to know what you guys have seen. My goal simply put is to get at or under MOA at 100 yards, preferrably 10 shot groups. So far I have shot several 5-10 shot groups that will measure about 1.25 tall and 1.5-1.75 wide. One of the stand outs was Eley Target and surprisingly this gun seems to shoot cheap ammo well. It shoots cheap Blazers amazingly well also... which is strange.

So do I look at a better barrel? What about barrel tuners? Am I chasing a myth and should I just be happy with what I am shooting now?

Whats the boards experience?

I've done a lot of work on T1x accuracy, out of the box they are quite good but can be made much better, the factory barrels are very good but suffer from poor chambers (from an accuracy standpoint) they are long so the ammunition will not engrave the rifling and the transition to the rifling is well, just plain ugly. Setting back the barrel and re chambering it with a proper match reamer makes a significant difference in how they shoot, there are other small mods that also contribute to the accuracy potential, (the factory stock with it's pressure shoe needs to go) fitting it with a proper match barrel will make the T1x competitive with any of the high end customs. All the targets were shot at 100 yards prone from a bipod, standard 1x3/4 paster

 

[grauhanen]

While ten shot group averages under .7" are possible, they won't appear regularly unless the shooter, rifle, ammo and conditions are consistently very good. The trouble is that while one or more of these may occur at a time, it's not usual that all will be consistently present.

The result is that occasionally some good results appear, but they can't be counted on to appear consistently.

And it's well worth noting that three ten-shot group averages under .7" are much more likely than five ten-shot groups with the same average.

I shot the 100 yard ten-shot group results shown below with a 1973-made Anschutz that originally came to me as a 1411. I changed the factory stock to an Anschutz BR50 stock. It's not bedded, and the rifle doesn't have a tuner. (I have had no luck tuning the 69cm (27.2") long, 24mm (0.945") diameter barrel with a standard Harrel tuner.)

On the targets shown, all caliper sizes are outside edge-to-outside edge. If a .21" deduction is used to determine center-to-center size, the following targets are .693", .641", and .692".

How common were these targets? To put them in perspective, the two ammos that produced the targets below were on average not quite so good. With this rifle, the Center X lot averaged .929" over 31 ten-shot groups and the Midas .793" over 13 groups.

Clearly, while "wallet groups" or "wallet targets" are nice for reminiscing, very good results are the exception.

The first target below was shot on Sept. 13, 2021 with the best lot of Center X I've had. (.693")






The next target, my personal best to date, was shot on Sept. 19,2021. The ammo was Midas +, but even this lot had occasional fliers or shots that didn't follow others. (.641")






The target below was also shot on Sept. 19 with the same lot of Midas +. (.692")

 

[jps2486]

My Vudoo and some of my air rifles will shoot less than 1 MOA at 100 yards, but not always. Wind is a big factor, but more so, is the shooter. You have to work on it. Upper quality ammo is a must.

 

[boltman13]

This thread just gets better and better. I have followed it for some time and decided to jump in. I agree with "grauhanen's" trifecta of the right rifle/barrel, wind reading, and ammunition the rifle likes. We compete locally at 50 yards benchrest using the IBS BR-50 target and three shooters have fired 250 scores, one, not me with 20X's, My two times were with my Walther KKM and RWS R-50. Both times the wind was mild but also very consistent. We also shoot 100 yard benchrest 50 shot matches using the IBS Hunter Benchrest 200 and 100 yard targets firing 5 shots into each scoring target with unlimited sighters over 30 minutes. My Walther with a Weaver T-36 and RWS R-50 posted a 249-5X in very light and constant wind on the big target. No one has shot a 250 yet. The 10 ring on that target is 1" in diameter and 4 of my five targets were sub 1" and the fifth was 1.245" The smaller 100 yard target has a 0.5" ten ring. At last week's match shooting my CZ Varmint with a 20" barrel, a EGW front bag rider, and a Yo-Dave trigger spring with about a 12 ounce trigger pull I was all over the small targets until my last target when the wind settled down and was constant from 10 O'clock at 3-4 MPH. Then I fired the attached target, sadly with the last box of 50 in that lot of RWS R-50 I have. That group is a fluke, and I may never do it again with that rifle or my Walther or any other one I have, but there it is. That rifle/barrel, ammunition, wind condition, shooter has occasionally gotten just under 1" at 100 yards but never anything remotely that small. Interestingly that rifle shoots Midas+ better at 50 yards than RWS but never anywhere near 0.240". We have noted as our group gets more experienced, and our equipment and ammunition more expensive, and we improve our wind and wind flag reading improves our scores have gone up considerably. It just shows "grauhanen's" trifecta is spot on.

 

[kevin nevius]

Kevin! You have good contacts to Lapua as we have also.Indoor shooting it doesnt matter very much how fast your 22 LR ammo is when talking wind drift.
But outdoor there is.We have lobby Lapua to make little slower 22 LR ammo.Prone shooters & BR shooters need those.
From old ammos I have never seen smaller wind drift to 50 meter as old Lapua Subsonic HP.And to 100 meter old Lapua Scoremax with its 48 grain bullet & 315 m/s (1033 feet/s) Vo speed has smaller wind drift.

I am not ballistic expert and I dont know how much of 22 LR bullets wind drift is coming from bullets round/s speed? Now near all barrels has 16-16,5" rifling.

About 25 years ago I didnt understand that when we are moving under speed of sound we have smaller wind drift with slower ammo.Scoremax shooted from 15" rifling was top to 100 meter.
Then I read Mr McCoys studies and understood this.

Kevin! You are "heavy name" and I hope that you also lobby Lapua to make to us little slower 22 LR ammo.

BR, Timo from Finland

Good morning TImo:

I'm not sure how much of a "heavy hitter" I am LOL - but I am forever grateful for my association with Lapua, and the exceptional people I have met through the years. For someone who loves the RF shooting sports, it has been an absolute blessing.

We have discussed velocity in the past, and it certainly wasn't due to my input - but several of the containers last year seemed to have more lower velocity offerings in them for sure. As I mentioned, when I tested for the 2020 season, that container had several lots in the 320 - 325mps range, and all tested very, very well.

My best lot (if I had to pick one) was the lot I won back to back Nationals with in 2014 / 2015. It was a 327mps lot (for reference), and although it was a little fast(er), it was exceptionally predictable at range.

So, a little rimfire story - I tested and was fortunate enough to receive four cases of that lot in 2013. After using it in the rifle I tested it in, I just wasn't completely happy with it and relegated it to really good practice ammunition. I ended up burning most of two cases through 2013 and the beginning of 2014 - and fitted a new Krieger at the start of the 2014 season. In practice, I started to realize how great this lot was in this new barrel - so I ran it through several tuning sessions, and managed to win in 2014 and 2015, but I could just kick myself for burning up so much of it in practice. I shot the last box as the 2015 Nationals ended.

All the very best to you and yours!

PS - Finland is one of the most beautiful places I have ever visited, you are lucky to live there!

kev

 

[skeetlee]

I build lots of 22’s in my shop and the trend I’m seeing for guys wanting to shoot past 5-0 yards is faster twist barrels. I’ve built and own a couple rifles that will shoot under half inch at 100 yards but everything must be right! The wind especially!!
I’ve been chambering several 9 twist for the long range guys and I think it’s for good reason. I don’t personally own a 9 twist barrel yet but it won’t be long!! Something to think about
Lee Gardner Precision

 

[doninreno]

at our club in benchrest 100 yd matches you will mostly see 2 inch or bigger groups. Most guys are shooting Eley Black or Eley Tennex ammo. Some of these guys are shooting very expensive rifles with a front rest and rear bag.. The wind will effect 22's a lot. Very rare to see a 1 inch group.

At our Mini-Palma matches shot at 100 yards off of either a BIPOD or something like a SEB NEO with a rear bag (depends on what class you want to shoot in) a 2" group will get VERY consistently last place in either class, FTR or F-Open. Not long ago I shot my 40X (absolutely stock and was built in 1964) in FTR Class...shot a 450-32 and wound up THIRD OF FOURTH!! 450-45X is a perfect score. Ammo was SK Pistol Match.

 

[rebs]

At our Mini-Palma matches shot at 100 yards off of either a BIPOD or something like a SEB NEO with a rear bag (depends on what class you want to shoot in) a 2" group will get VERY consistently last place in either class, FTR or F-Open. Not long ago I shot my 40X (absolutely stock and was built in 1964) in FTR Class...shot a 450-32 and wound up THIRD OF FOURTH!! 450-45X is a perfect score. Ammo was SK Pistol Match.

at our club there is always wind to deal with