1/4 MOA Sabatti Rifle Claim -- Tunnel Test

[Brians356]

Now if this as a short range BR rifle......then a 1/4" 100 yd 3-shot group is still meaningless. It needs to shoot much better than that....

You miss the point. It will shoot much better than that - off your bench setup, with your carefully crafted handloads, and your wind flags. But I did miss the fact he only shot a single group, so thanks for pointing that out.
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[Brians356]

I didn't watch the video but unless its a new generation Sabatti we have a couple around here and when they shoot they really do shoot but there has been one or 2 complete duds that I know of

Did anyone try to return a dud under a warranty claim?
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[K22]

Shot off a bipod with factory ammo. I was impressed even with 3 shot groups. But I agree, a 3 shot group really doesn't tell the real capability of a rifle. In my experience, it's aggregates of 5 shot groups that really reveal the capability of a rifle.

With tuned reloads, I have shot some 1/4 moa, 5 shot groups with both my 223 Weatherby Mark V Super Varmint Master and Remington 700 with a Match Douglas barrel but I can't do it all the time. The weather has to be perfect, and I have to be in the zone to do it.

I can see some buying this and thinking that automatically, they will shoot 1/4 moa. In my experience, it takes a lot of skill to consistently shoot at that level even off the bench with a perfect front and rear rest. Plus, you have to have a high-quality scope and consistent quality ammo to do that consistently.

 

[FNSafari]

Shot off a bipod with factory ammo. I was impressed even with 3 shot groups. But I agree, a 3 shot group really doesn't tell the real capability of a rifle. In my experience, it's aggregates of 5 shot groups that really reveal the capability of a rifle.

With tuned reloads, I have shot some 1/4 moa, 5 shot groups with both my 223 Weatherby Mark V Super Varmint Master and Remington 700 with a Match Douglas barrel but I can't do it all the time. The weather has to be perfect, and I have to be in the zone to do it.

I can see some buying this and thinking that automatically, they will shoot 1/4 moa. In my experience, it takes a lot of skill to consistently shoot at that level even off the bench with a perfect front and rear rest. Plus, you have to have a high-quality scope and consistent quality ammo to do that consistently.

Agreed, but if its a hunting rifle, imo, the thing that really counts is where it prints the first shot from a cold barrel, followed by a few follow-ups.

 

[INTJ]

You miss the point. It will shoot much better than that - off your bench setup, with your carefully crafted handloads, and your wind flags. But I did miss the fact he only shot a single group, so thanks for pointing that out.
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My point is that is all irrelevant. A 100 yd group--no matter how small it is--is a meaningless measurement for a rifle meant to be shot at long range. What counts is groups at longer ranges.

 

[Rampsey]

1/4" 100 yd 3-shot groups are meaningless. What matters is how it shoots at distance--say 500+ yds. At least 300. Three hundred yds at least seems to eliminate the 100 yd lies some rifles tell, though it's best to do load development at the max distance you plan to shoot.

We have had many one-hole 100 yd groups, with low ES and SD, shoot 12" plus at 500 to 650 yds. We only trust groups at longer ranges.

When we are doing load developments, and these are primarily hunting rifles, once we get close to 1/2" at 100 yds, we then finish load development at 650 yds. We usually find sub 1/2 MOA 3-shot groups at 650 yds.

Now if this as a short range BR rifle......then a 1/4" 100 yd 3-shot group is still meaningless. It needs to shoot much better than that....

Your reply sounds like a prs or nrl rimfire guy...
They can't shoot one hole groups at 50 yards, but insist ARA bench guys at 50 yard don't mean nothing.
How do they shoot at 200-300 yards.

Well
Just like your reply and opinion.
How many days, and how many rounds can you tell me you fire at 600 yards in same environmental conditions repeatedly?
You can't.
Your constantly readjusting to dope calculations and then believe it proves anything about the rifle?
Rimfire optimized accuracy is at 50 yards/meters because if the least change in variable due to environment.
Same as a centerfire is 100 yards for same reason.
If you can't repeat exact same conditions. You can't accurately compare results

 

[6Creed73]

My pony is that is all irrelevant. A 100 yd group--no matter how small it is--is a meaningless measurement for a rifle meant to be shot at long range. What counts is groups at longer ranges.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Pretty much everyone I know does load development at 100 yards. The data collected during load development can definitely help predict a load's performance at longer range.

A few us actually tested this a few years back. A guy I shoot with has private land with a 600 yard range. We setup paper targets at 100, 300, 500...one directly behind the other. We wanted to see if 1 MOA at 100 yards was still 1 MOA at 500 yards. What we found was it's more to do with the ammo than the rifle. With my handloads that had good ES/SD, if it was 1/2 MOA at 100, it was a 1/2 MOA at 500.

 

[Brians356]

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My pony is that is all irrelevant. A 100 yd group--no matter how small it is--is a meaningless measurement for a rifle meant to be shot at long range. What counts is groups at longer ranges.

Fair enough. They should include a guarantee of a certain precision at a specified long range apropos for, say, PRS competition, just as other production PRS-type rifles in this price range come with.
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[hogpatrol]

My PH in Africa bought one in 300 WM for his camp gun. With the 200 ELD-Xs, his clients have taken hundreds of animals. He did switch stocks though. I shot it once and the trigger was good for a hunting rifle.
Can't comment on the accuracy but it was probably good for one minute of wildebeest.

 

[Brians356]

But I agree, a 3 shot group really doesn't tell the real capability of a rifle.

Really? Suppose in the video two of the three shots missed the target entirely. Could not one reasonably assess its real capability, or would that be unfair?
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[Ledd Slinger]

Who cares what he is or isn't doing right with bags and rest and how many rounds in the group. Obviously nothing to do with the point of the video. That's two factory rifles shooting consistent sub 1/4 moa 3 shot groups with the SAME factory ammo.

If that's not impressive then I don't know what is. If it shoots like that with factory ammo, imagine what it will probably do with tuned handloads. I cant build a custom rifle for $2500 that will shoot better than that with FACTORY ammo. Sabatti is definitely on my radar now. Very nice rifles.

 

[jds holler]

I'm not a long range shooter, but I think I understand that a rifle and load that can shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 - 200 yds might suck at 1000 yds. It only stands to reason that the load, bullet, twist, and other factors that work for short range bench just aren't the same as what works at 1000.

I'd also bet that a long range rifle could very well suck at short range. -- Or at least not be competitive at the shorter range. jd

 

[Ned Ludd]

My pony is that is all irrelevant. A 100 yd group--no matter how small it is--is a meaningless measurement for a rifle meant to be shot at long range. What counts is groups at longer ranges.

Uh, no...it isn't. You apparently don't understand angular dispersion very well. In fact, it is groups fired at longer range that often have little relationship to those fired at closer distances such as 100 yd because other factors such as external wind effects and shooter error can dramatically increase shot dispersion. It never goes the other direction. Groups fired at shorter distance as such as 100 yd are the better measure of how good a load actually is because the influence of external factors is minimized. No rifle or load accidentally shoots consistent quarter MOA groups at 100 yds. When that happens, it's not an accident. Further, if someone has a rifle capable of consistently shooting quarter minute groups at 100 yd, whether they are 3 shots or 5 shots, and it won't shoot well at 500+ yd, it's not the rifle and load, but something else such as shooter error or external conditions. This is just simple external ballistics and is well-established.

I think the performance of these Sabatti rifles is pretty impressive for non-custom rifles. For certain individuals and/or purposes, I'm sure they would work well. However, for a specific purpose such as F-Class shooting, maybe not so much. For example, the barrel lengths and some features offered are not going to allow for shooting optimized handloads with the uber high BC long heavy bullets favored by F-Class shooters. One could certainly mitigate that by having a quality aftermarket barrel chambered, but that would only put the rifle a little closer to the cost of a custom build. At some point, it's probably just better to have the custom rifle built so you can get the exact specs you want. Nonetheless, I'm impressed with their out-of-the-box precision and they look good.

 

[Brians356]

Further, if someone has a rifle capable of consistently shooting quarter minute groups at 100 yd and it won't shoot well at 500+ yd, it's not the rifle and load, but something else such as shooter error or external conditions.

To be fair, it could be that the twist rate is inappropriate for the bullets needed at long range, or that the particular bullet doing well at short range is inappropriate for long range stability. Neither are demerits against the quality of the rifle itself.
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[nksmfamjp]

Looks like it has potential. I’d like to see what 20 shots looks like. I feel like with a case of ammo and a decent rest, you will shoot a swell group once in a while.

This is not really fair as what is the ammo capability. We are poking at the rifle, but I’d be amazed to see that ammo shoot that from a test barrel!

So, I’m not sure what a 3 shot 0.2” group shot with a factory rifle tells me. So, I guess I say it warrants running a full box through. When that is 1.1moa, is it still good?

 

[M-61]

I saw a Sabatti video last week saying they have shot 50,000+ shots through a 270 wsm while still maintaining good accuracy

To me that statement says volumes about anything else they might say or have said.
If I cared I’d ask their definition of ‘good’.

 

[Brians356]

So, I’m not sure what a 3 shot 0.2” group shot with a factory rifle tells me. So, I guess I say it warrants running a full box through. When that is 1.1moa, is it still good?

Mental exercise: What's the probability that a brand-new production rifle that's actually a 1.1-MOA gun will place your first three shots of whatever factory ammo you choose inside 1/4" at 100 yards?
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[K22]

Agreed, but if its a hunting rifle, imo, the thing that really counts is where it prints the first shot from a cold barrel, followed by a few follow-ups.

I am a hunter, primarily varmints. All my practices sessions at the range consist of cold and cool barrel shots so I have a very good assessment of my first shot capability.

 

[M-61]

We setup paper targets at 100, 300, 500...one directly behind the other. We wanted to see if 1 MOA at 100 yards was still 1 MOA at 500 yards.

What a great test. Something I always wanted to try.
I’m guessing it was targets in frames, no backing?

 

[Downhill]

Got behind a Sabbatti 8 to 10 years ago(can't remember). Running the handloads for my SSG 69. It ran neck and neck with the Steyr. For a factory rifle, impressive. Always wished we had a domestic rifle with that capability. Was it 1/4"? Don't remember a group that small but definitely 1/2"ish. And it is a factory offering not a custom.