1,000 yard F-Class vertical expectations vs. reality

[mysticplayer]

When developing a rifle, don't you try for the best possible mechanical accuracy?

Does that not include getting the least amount of dispersion possible?

I will answer my own questions and say, YES.

But there is significant difference between what the machine can do and what WE can shoot in competition.

Otherwise, we would all have perfect scores.

Now how a shooter goes about tuning and deciding what is good enough is entirely their decision.

Personally, I work to give myself as much leeway on that target as I can. That means working for the flattest and narrowest group I can make.

Under ideal conditions, I want to see 1/3 or less vertical at 500m (one of the ranges has this distance so easy to test). Then confirm at 1000yds.

Some have to remember that most of us are saying VERTICAL. NOT group size

Most of the time, the group averages 1/2 min wide by 1/3 (hopefully less) min tall. I work for load tuning that gives me a group that looks like a football on its side.

how I cope with the winds during a competition..... that is entirely different story.

But I know my gear can hit that X ring even when the driver gets lost.

Speeds in qualifying almost never equal those in a race BUT who the heck qualifies a "slow" car?

Good luck to all prepping for the US Nationals and Worlds. For many of us, winter has been long and doesn't want to release its grip just yet but it will end and then we have to deal with BUGS....

fun, fun, fun...

Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

If that is so; why not shoot a 6.5? A 140 Hybrid has a pretty good B.C. When 6.5's dominated, that bullet was not available. Maybe you should give the 6.5's another look. [br]

Because you dont win on vertical alone.

In 1000yds in bumpy air, I see f class moving faster and faster to heavy bullets and larger bores.

in a fun team match, I had the fun of coaching a 30cal magnum pushing 215gr hybrids at a decent clip. compared to the 223/90 I was shooting, it felt like cheating.

When the cows are leaning over, there is no replacement for displacement.

Jerry

 

[DBailey]

Now that most of us are using big 7's 1/2 MOA vertical is rare (at this point). However it was not uncommon to see 1/2 MOA VERTICAL when the 6.5's ruled.
And yes I have witnessed a 1000 yard 20 shot 1/4 MOA VERTICAL string shot by J.T. in a team match with a 6.5-284 .

[br]
If that is so; why not shoot a 6.5? A 140 Hybrid has a pretty good B.C. When 6.5's dominated, that bullet was not available. Maybe you should give the 6.5's another look. [br]
I'm going in the other direction. My .300 WSM is pushing 230 Hybrids at very close to 2950. It has quite a bit of recoil but I'm not very recoil sensitive. It is accurate and the ES is very close to my Shehane. We'll see this Saturday in a 3X600 and a Long Range weekend the week after, both at Camp Pendleton. If the ballistics can be applied, it will be tough to beat. Worth noting, The 2012 AZ Long Range, Palma and the 2013 Berger were all won by .300 WSM's. [br]
To 6BRinNZ: I look for five 5-shot <=.3" agg and <15 fps ES at 100 yards. I usually, but not always, shoot a few strings at 300 to get a feel for the load. And, I try hard to shoot a load in club matches before going to a major tournament.

Hey Steve,
Good luck with the 230's, that does appear to be the wave of the future.

You know as well as I that for the vertical points we lost when we switched we gained more in the wind. Erik asked about Vertical not Horizontal.

As for your obvious sarcasm. You can shove it up your ass.

 

[Steve Blair]

It wasn't sarcasm, David. Run the ballistics yourself. A 6.5 with 140 Hybrids is not far behind a 7mm. About 1/2 MOA in the mythical 10 mph wind. In fact, I'm looking to chamber a 6.5X47L for Mid Range to take advantage of what the 140 Hybrid can offer and still have low recoil and excellent gun handling. I'm sorry if you thought I was harping on you, but you're wrong. [br]
As for gun handling; the caution I expressed about the .300 is also not sarcasm. While the gun doesn't hurt me, it moves around, a lot, when fired. I still don't know whether it will work in a match. [br]
I shot my first F-Open match November 2011 with the same Shehane that I still shoot. I never shot a 6.5. Other than one LR club match shot with a 6BR, I've only shot .308 and Shehane in F-Class. So, I don't have your experience with other calibers.

 

[6BRinNZ]

David - Steve - thanks for the replies.

 

[DBailey]

My Apologies Steve.
Not the first time I've been wrong. lol


A .300 WSM also won the 2010 F-Class Nationals. There is quite a bit of 30 caliber speculation, planing, and testing going on these days With vertical being the main point of interest.
The 6.5X47L is a sweet mid range cartridge. I won the 600 yard day of the Berger 2012 SWLRN using one. On decent wind days it's very capable at 1000 also.

The minimum vertical dispersion of the 6.5-284 is why most of us rode them till the bitter end. They were awesome in that respect.

 

[Laurie]

Leaning much more to F/TR, I'd not appreciated how good 6.5-284 verticals are. I had noticed that many of our 'Open people' hung on to 6.5s after making the switch to 7mm, and brought them as 2nd rifles to major matches, 'just in case the conditions turn out to be mild', but that stopped maybe two / three seasons ago. Even when 'conditions were mild', using a seven still paid off almost invariably and those who'd tried their older smaller calibre rigs admitted afterwards it had been a mistake. At 1,000, it seems brute ballistics still pay off, but we usually find that apparently light wind days often have far more variable winds than can be seen. In fact, light wind days often just make things harder here because the flags don't show the changes and we usually cannot rely on mirage as an alternative, Bisley aside.

Going back to Erik's original question, I'm sure that some of this issue is what we see, therefore what we aim at, therefore where we hit. 1,000 yards is a lot of air to look through and with a relay taking 15-20 minutes (?) string-shooting, up to three-quarters of an hour with our partnered, alternate method, who's to say that even if the winds are light to non-existent, that the air we look through doesn't change and alter sight-pictures marginally over the course of a match? Then too, pockets of marginally warmer or colder air may move across the range, that affect both the sight-picture and the bullet flight, only marginally but if we aspire to quarter-MOA verticals, two and a half inches or thereabouts at 1K, that is marginal! There are light change issues - optical sights are affected less than irons, but they're not 100% free of this factor. We maybe see more of this in the UK as we only rarely shoot matches in 100% constant ambient lighting conditions.

We do regard verticals differently from laterals - and generally hate or worry about them. But, who's to say that a third-MOA move sideways is guaranteed 100% wind-effect? We read it as such and plot it and maybe adjust the aim of the next shot for it too, but we've actually no way of knowing whether it was really due to wind or it was caused by a factor that also injects the occasional vertical flier too.

Shooting fast and doing it prone, we're not going to hold the aim as tight as a BR shooter in a seated position and with a bit more stable set-up. For F/TR shooters, the bi-pod front support likely injects some vertical especially if the rear bag is filled on the soft side to allow a bit of bag squeezing to fine-tune the vertical aim. The scope power selected may be a compromise - I know people who run at surprisingly low powers to widen the field of view and see adjacent targets to pick up on the size of wind shifts, but that'll reduce the degree of precision possible a little.

Then, can a rifle and barrel take 20 shots in a smaller number of minutes and hold quarter-MOA, actually hold a considerably lower figure as it needs to be say 0.1-MOA in a perfect environment to generate 0.25-MOA with other factors overlayering the inherent precision you might get shooting in a tube-range. What would the 1K BR records be if they were for 20 shots, not 5 or 10? As cartridges and powder charges become heavier, so the amount of heat to be dispersed rises. Again less of an issue for us in the UK as we rarely shoot in really hot conditions, don't string shoot, and in our windy islands usually have nice cooling winds blowing over the barrel constantly.

 

[XTR]

It's at 900 and not at 1000, but I pulled for Ronnie Ralston when he shot a 150 - 11X in a Palma match at Oak Ridge, and he had an x before he went for record. (shooting F-TR). I'd wager his vertical was a solid sub .5.

 

[RDavies]

I,m glad I followed this thread. With all the talk on these forums of super tight groups and high scores, I thought I was the only shooter around who had a wobbly gun.
On my home range I think it is possible to get long strings under 1/2 moa in mild, cool, no mirage conditions, with my 6 Dasher, but they never hold big matches on this mild, flat, protected range.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have not shot f-class yet. Planning on my first in April. But I can say in 1000 br, a .5 moa 10 shot group is not all that common. And generally thats running the shots. I would be amazed at a 20 shot .5 moa group, running them. Now 20 shots, .5 moa having to wait for the target crew... I would frame that one.
Alex

 

[Bob Sebold]

I have done at 600, I know thats easier. I am sure I have shot X ring vertical at 1000. Loose em for the wind. I have watched Ryan Pierce do it at Lodi. I think???

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Look at Charles Ballard's record target here on the sight. If I'm seeing it correctly, his 284 held right at or slightly below 1/2 MOA.

 

[DBailey]

Yep, It's close to 1/3 MOA.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Look at Charles Ballard's record target here on the sight. If I'm seeing it correctly, his 284 held right at or slightly below 1/2 MOA.

If you are looking at this target:

There's no way that's less than 1/2 minute of vertical. Half a minute would mean that ALL the shots were in a string that is half the size of the X-ring or less, right? Unless this is an older F-Class target. If this is a modern (5" X) target, then my guess is that it's somewhere around 3/4 of minute vertical, maybe a bit less. There're two shots (ok, mostly one shot) that take it out of the 1/2 minute race. Damn good shooting overall though. Wish I shot like that.

EDIT: Do'h! David is right, I am wrong. He is the best, I am the worst. He is very good looking, I am not very attractive... ;D

 

[Steve Blair]

Jay,
The X ring is 1/2 MOA. I think David is about right.

 

[DBailey]

Yep, 5" at 1000 yards is about 1/2 MOA.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay,
The X ring is 1/2 MOA. I think David is about right.

Do'h! David is right, I am wrong. He is the best, I am the worst. He is very good looking, I am not very attractive... ;D

 

[DBailey]

Jay,
The X ring is 1/2 MOA. I think David is about right.

Do'h! David is right, I am wrong. He is the best, I am the worst. He is very good looking, I am not very attractive... ;D

Hitting the bottle a little early today huh. LOL!

 

[Jay Christopherson]

Jay,
The X ring is 1/2 MOA. I think David is about right.

Do'h! David is right, I am wrong. He is the best, I am the worst. He is very good looking, I am not very attractive... ;D

Hitting the bottle a little early today huh. LOL!

Well, last night anyhow. For some reason, Happy Gilmore came to mind... if you had answered "Alright - as long as you can admit that now", it would have been classic.

 

[Kings X]

OK back on topic.
Why do we get more than 1/2 MOA at 1k when the gun shoots less than 1/4 MOA at 100?
Why do some folks say that they are not having any vertical and some are 8 ring to 8 ring?
Why do some folks have zero changes day to day and some don't?
How can I be down double handfull due to vertical and the guy next to me shoots no one - but TWO 199s at Phoenix. Can you answer that one Steve? ( He told me that his barrel just "came in" after 300 rounds).
Could it be a changing BC between shots due to a them taking longer to "go to sleep"???? If a bullet is corkscrewing - it presents a larger diameter profile and thus a lower BC.