what went wrong 185's at 1,000

[Laurie]

Quote from: BlueRidge on Today at 09:45 AM

I'm impressed by 2800 fps for a 185 grainer out of a 308. Even out of a 30" barrel I would find that smokin'!


I get ~2800 from Berger 185 BTLR in a 30" barrel, but only with Reloder 17. {Sleepygator]

Steve, BlueRidge

when my F/TR rifle was .308 Win (pre - .223 Rem / 90 VLD), my main load was the 185 Berger BTLR at between 2,780 and 2,815 fps using Lapua (standard) brass, Fed 210M and 46.3gn Viht N550 from a 30" Broughton 1-10" twist with a minimum SAAMI .308 chamber allied to near optimal throating for this bullet. There was quite a noticeable MV difference between late winter and high summer though even in our cool climate, hence the range of MVs quoted - so, I'm not at all sure how well suited it would be to much of the USA in the warmer months - but it did work very well under our conditions. This combination held 1,000yd elevation brilliantly, much better than the previous 1-13.5" twist barrel had with 155gn Lapua Scenars over N540. I could get higher MVs than 2,800 with N550, but groups opened up a lot, as did MV ES.

Some people here have pushed them much faster than 2,800 (same people now getting 2,700 from 210s!) but we have much more latitude here with our lower temperatures. (the last GB League round in the first weekend of August never exceeded 10C / 50F for the whole weekend until shortly after shooting finished and the sun appeared!)

I tried Re17 with the 185 and got very high MVs but not great groups or MV spreads in my rifle. Where I've found Re17 indispensable in .308 Win is with the 208gn Hornady A-Max and 210 Bergers, but in the Lapua 'Palma' small primer brass, not standard cases. (CCI-BR4 primers.) The small primer brass doesn't perform though below a certain temperature with many powders. I can't tell you exactly where the boundary is, but it's a 'no' at 2 or 3 C (36-38F) and 'yes' at 10 C (50F). The guys using the 210s here in F/TR mostly use small primer brass and Viht N550, but I've found this powder inferior to Re17 with this bullet weight in my barrel.

Laurie

 

[Steve Blair]

Laurie,

My RL17 load is not near max in this barrel, even at the sometimes 100°F San Diego temps. It is 2.895 OAL, about .030" off the lands. The last time I chronographed the load, it averaged 8.2 SD and .2 MOA vertical at 300 yards. That was in 80°F. This load is contrary to my previous experience with RL17 when it seemed to perform better at full pressure. This load is not that but accuracy, elevation and velocity variation are all good. I guess that is why we test.

BTW, German visited San Diego this past weekend for our Regional Mid-Range match at Camp Pendleton. He won the F-Class overall shooting a .308 off the bipod. I am sorry to say that I was shooting a very accurate 6BR in Open. So, if he says anything about not having the hang of this "F-in'" stuff, don't believe him.

 

[CacheCropp]

Laurie,

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed explanation. After posting my thoughts, I quickly decided I didn't want to hi-jack the original subject of the thread. So I removed my comments and started a new thread in the Competition forum. Sorry for the confusion.

I've tried N540 and RE17 with 185LRBT's. RE17 produced a max of 2600fps out of my 24" barrel. N540 maxed at 2650fps and gave better SD and ES. Very impressed with 2800 fps, even with an extra 6" of bbl. That is a formidable combination indeed! I'm trying some Berger 168 hybrids next.

 

[Laurie]

The last time I chronographed the load, it averaged 8.2 SD and .2 MOA vertical at 300 yards. That was in 80°F. This load is contrary to my previous experience with RL17 when it seemed to perform better at full pressure. This load is not that but accuracy, elevation and velocity variation are all good. I guess that is why we test.

Good one. Just didn't work out too well for me. I bought my Re17 for 6XC in a bench rest 600/1,000 Light Gun and never intended it for .308 Win, but haven't got around to doing the load development yet - I really must. I also have some Hodgdon Hybrid 100V that looks worth trying too. I'm spending a lot of time testing .308 loads in my Barnard / Eliseo former F/TR rifle instead at the moment for eventual publication, rushing to get it done partly before the short and cold days arrive, partly because this rifle is going to be rebarrelled to 6.5X47L for club-level F Class shooting as soon as the testing is done.

Laurie

PS good to hear that German is out and doing so well - I warned him in a PM some time back that this F/TR business is infectious - but I bet he'll return to elbows and sling once his shoulder has healed!

 

[Laurie]

Laurie,

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed explanation. After posting my thoughts, I quickly decided I didn't want to hi-jack the original subject of the thread. So I removed my comments and started a new thread in the Competition forum. Sorry for the confusion.

I've tried N540 and RE17 with 185LRBT's. RE17 produced a max of 2600fps out of my 24" barrel. N540 maxed at 2650fps and gave better SD and ES. Very impressed with 2800 fps, even with an extra 6" of bbl. That is a formidable combination indeed! I'm trying some Berger 168 hybrids next.

BlueRidge,

no offence taken - we have rather hijacked the thread, but that's part of the fun with forums as long as it doesn't get too out of hand.

Returning to .308W ballistics, an extra six inches in .308 does give you a lot more latitude. The other thing with the 'heavies' is a chamber that's suitably throated - I don't think you get best accuracy, and certainly won't get best velocity without one. That's one reason why the two rifles issue has arisen - people tried compromise throat lengths and decided it didn't work, not at least with bullets as different as 155s and 210s.

I'm looking forward to trying the Hybrids - they haven't arrived here in the UK yet. I'm hoping to have a .308 F/TR rifle again next year in addition to my .223 and the plan is to build it around the 185 and 200gn Hybrids - such is my faith in Bryan Litz's design abilities and Berger Bullets' production expertise.

 

[Trevor60]

no worries about hijacking this thread, speed was one of the major criteria's discussed with Lynn and others about running the 185's in a 14 twist as was freebore hense my desire to get to 2800+. quite frankly i think my current set up has peaked and this is a mid distances combination. I will need to find something else for 1,000.

I am awaiting for my faster twist barrel which is now overdue (sigh) so i will use what i have.

my current barrel is a 32 inch heavy palma the extra length is great for increasing speeds , i selected Vince bottomley's reamer specs to run the 155 lapua as luck would have it the longer throat allows for the heavier bullets to be used as well.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. if i have any more news i will let you know.
Trevor

 

[Laurie]

i selected Vince bottomley's reamer specs to run the 155 lapua as luck would have it the longer throat allows for the heavier bullets to be used as well.

Trevor,

that's what I used in my last barrel and the 1-10" Broughton I now have. Vince and I got identical 1-13.5" twist Bartleins and Vince ordered the reamer based on the 155 Scenar seated right out. Quite by chance it turned out to be near ideal for the 185 Berger BTLR and Stuart Anselm is still chambering barrels with it for people who want to use 155s up to the 185. It is too short for the 210s, especially the Sierra MK. I'm not personally convinced by the 210s though in .308 Win. It may be that 185 is the optimal weight - I'm watching out closely for feedback on the new 185 and 200gn Berger Hybrids. While the 200 has stellar ballistics performance, the 185 may yet turn out to be the better performer in this cartridge.

Laurie

 

[lynn]

Laurie
My father and myself are both shooting 300 WSM heavyguns with the 187 BIB bullets.We are getting 3050 fps usin 64.5 grains of H4350 and Norma brass with 0.287 freebore and CCI BR2 primers.It takes several firings before the cases fit the chamber with this load.
I tried the 187's in an 11 twist 300 Ackley at 3300fps and the results were not good.
Lynn

 

[Laurie]

Lynn,

thank you for the information - a very interesting combination and a nice mild load. Not one I would have predicted people would use or find successful, but that's one of the things about long range shooting that makes it so much fun (or frustration at times), the way people can break the mould and overturn preconceptions.

 

[lynn]

Here is my fathers target at 600 yards shot at Ojai,Ca.
The group shown is a 1/2 inch under the current record but the 10th shot is not in view.It opened the target up to almost 5 inches instead of <1.2 inches as shown.
He slid his gun forward and the stop on his 45 pound heavygun knocked the front bag off of his rest.The gun dropped down and the shot cost him a record group.
Lynn