1,000 yard F-Class vertical expectations vs. reality

[Erik Cortina]

This was triggered by a discussion on another thread.

What is the tightest 1,000 yard vertical you have ever seen/shot in competition for an entire string including "flyers"?

Have you ever seen anyone shoot 1/2 MOA vertical or less for a full string? Have you seen anyone shoot 1/4 MOA vertical?

What is your gun capable of?

 

[Steve Blair]

I shot under 1 MOA a few times when the Shehane is hammering and conditions are moderate. I've seen a couple shooters come close to 1/2 MOA but there was always a shot or two over or under. I have never seen a 1/4 MOA, 20 shot string at 1000. [br]
Even if the rifle and ammunition can potentially achieve 1/4 MOA, there are too many variables in play.

 

[Laurie]

What is the tightest 1,000 yard vertical you have ever seen/shot in competition for an entire string including "flyers"?

As I said on the other thread, my personal best was ~two-thirds-MOA and that was in exceptionally benign and stable conditions.

If I can keep every shot just within 1-MOA I'm really delighted - there always seems to be one or two high and low for some reason or other.

I suspect that half-MOA is as good as anybody gets over 20-rounds and that's a rarity needing apparenmtly perfect conditions.

I watched an 'Open' relay shoot at Diggle in a GB league match some 4 or 5 years ago in the last match / relay of the weekend. The wind died completely, or apparently so, and Diggle's flags are very light so twitch with the mildest of breezes. It was a bright overcast, under 70F, no apparent mirage and yet the 'possibles' and massive V-counts that we confidently predicted were going to be scored simply didn't appear. Every competitor complained of verticals and scores were lower than if there had been a consistent wind. I still don't know the reason.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

1/4 MOA @ 1000 yards? I think finding a unicorn would be easier!!! lol

 

[Jim See]

Eric, I have shot sub 1 moa verticle on more than one occasion in a 20 shot string, i can't really say if it was at or under 1/2 because I very rarely get to go to the pits and look at a fresh face that only I shot. I have had guys tell me that after a string I was holding 1/2 moa but that is there impression looking thru a spotting scope. Only one time have I been related a story of 1/4 moa verticle at 1000. It wasn't a typical string though, during a wind clinic the shooters were asked to send down a couple sighters with target service, once they were centered up they were told to send 10 bullets down range with no pit service. Johns 10 shots were covered with the 2.5" spotter.

edited;That really doesn't apply as Eric was asking for somthing during a comp.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Eric, I have shot sub 1 moa verticle on more than one occasion in a 20 shot string, i can't really say if it was at or under 1/2 because I very rarely get to go to the pits and look at a fresh face that only I shot. I have had guys tell me that after a string I was holding 1/2 moa but that is there impression looking thru a spotting scope. Only one time have I been related a story of 1/4 moa verticle at 1000. It wasn't a typical string though, during a wind clinic the shooters were asked to send down a couple sighters with target service, once they were centered up they were told to send 10 bullets down range with no pit service. Johns 10 shots were covered with the 2.5" spotter.

I too have heard of 1/4 MOA stories when people look through the spotting scope, but upon target inspections, there always seems to be at least 2 or 3 shots they didn't account for that make the group 1 MOA or even bigger.

Let's not forget that the 10 shot World record for Benchrest is 2.8xx", so I find it extremely difficult to shoot 1/4 MOA for 20 shots in F-Class.

 

[Boisblancboy]

Erik what I think might be beneficial to this to this thread, which I think the original thread led this to, is testing at short range vs long range. Now it's not an amazing feat to shoot a 1/2 MOA group at 100 but quite the opposite to keep that 1/2 MOA put to 1000. Not that it isn't possible but even a 1/4 MOA group at 100 is most likely not going to be a 1/4 MOA at 1k.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Erik what I think might be beneficial to this to this thread, which I think the original thread led this to, is testing at short range vs long range. Now it's not an amazing feat to shoot a 1/2 MOA group at 100 but quite the opposite to keep that 1/2 MOA put to 1000. Not that it isn't possible but even a 1/4 MOA group at 100 is most likely not going to be a 1/4 MOA at 1k.

That's exactly my point. Even shooting a 20 shot 1/4 MOA group at 100 yards is not something we hear about on a regular basis.

However, we are only talking about vertical, and even that, I have never even seen 1/2 MOA vertical at 1,000 yards for 20 shots, and believe me, I have seen many people try! ;D

 

[Steve Blair]

My best 60 shot (3X1000) score was 596, shot under nearly ideal conditions at the 29 Palms Regional last year. All four points were lost to wind. I was more than pleased to hold 1 MOA for 60 shots. It is the only time I've done that. There are usually one or more shots lost to vertical, often unaccountable "range vertical."

 

[Jim See]

Eric, Good luck at matches this year, If we all keep striving someone will be able to pull a 1/2 moa verticle 1000 yard target in the future. If I see it happen I will surely cut it down.

 

[280man]

I wasnt there and I didnt see Danny Biggs target in Phoenix last year but a 200-18X has to be as close as anyone has really come to a .5 MOA 20 shot target.

Like someone else said earlier I would be happy if I could have a clean 200 at a 1000 even if it was a full miniute tall

 

[Steve Blair]

I wasnt there and I didnt see Danny Biggs target in Phoenix last year but a 200-18X has to be as close as anyone has really come to a .5 MOA 20 shot target.

Like someone else said earlier I would be happy if I could have a clean 200 at a 1000 even if it was a full miniute tall

[br]
Danny shot two (2) strings of 200-15X at the 2011 Berger SW LR Nationals in Phoenix. I was present when he shot both. I was also at the 2012 and 2013 Berger and don't think that has been bettered. [br]
He did shoot a 200-11X in the first match Sunday, this year. That was, I think, the only 20-shot F-Open clean in the somewhat breezy 2013 Berger.

 

[280man]

My bad I thought he had 18X.

 

[Erik Cortina]

This is as close as I got to a clean in Phoenix at 1,000 yards. 199-?X, I leaked one out to the right by about 1/4", so close, yet so far!!!! :-\

 

[Erik Cortina]

But luckily I redeemed myself in Houston at the Texas LR Championship and shot a 200-10X, my first 20 shot clean at 1,000 yards. However, that was only good enough for third place in that relay, as Mark Walker shot a 200-11X and Matt Davis shot a 200-14X on the same relay. Two outstanding shooters, but I don't think they shot 1/2 MOA during that string either.

The 2 high shots and the 9 on the left were sighters, after that, I don't remember which were for score inside the 10 ring.

If my gun shot like these two targets always, I would be very happy and very hard to beat I think. ;D

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

But luckily I redeemed myself in Houston at the Texas LR Championship and shot a 200-10X, my first 20 shot clean at 1,000 yards. However, that was only good enough for third place in that relay, as Mark Walker shot a 200-11X and Matt Davis shot a 200-14X on the same relay. Two outstanding shooters, but I don't think they shot 1/2 MOA during that string either.

Thanks, and nah, neither of ours were close to 1/2 min...

There is a pic somewhere on here of the 200-15 target I shot back in 2009 and it was just a bit less than 3/4.

 

[DBailey]

This was triggered by a discussion on another thread.

What is the tightest 1,000 yard vertical you have ever seen/shot in competition for an entire string including "flyers"?

Have you ever seen anyone shoot 1/2 MOA vertical or less for a full string? Have you seen anyone shoot 1/4 MOA vertical?

What is your gun capable of?

Now that most of us are using big 7's 1/2 MOA vertical is rare (at this point). However it was not uncommon to see 1/2 MOA VERTICAL when the 6.5's ruled.
And yes I have witnessed a 1000 yard 20 shot 1/4 MOA VERTICAL string shot by J.T. in a team match with a 6.5-284 .

 

[6BRinNZ]

when you guys load develop - what sort of vertical/grouping do you look for; before taking a load forward into comps?

 

[DBailey]

Don't know about them, but I look for 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at or under 1/3 moa Vertical.

 

[Steve Blair]

Now that most of us are using big 7's 1/2 MOA vertical is rare (at this point). However it was not uncommon to see 1/2 MOA VERTICAL when the 6.5's ruled.
And yes I have witnessed a 1000 yard 20 shot 1/4 MOA VERTICAL string shot by J.T. in a team match with a 6.5-284 .

[br]
If that is so; why not shoot a 6.5? A 140 Hybrid has a pretty good B.C. When 6.5's dominated, that bullet was not available. Maybe you should give the 6.5's another look. [br]
I'm going in the other direction. My .300 WSM is pushing 230 Hybrids at very close to 2950. It has quite a bit of recoil but I'm not very recoil sensitive. It is accurate and the ES is very close to my Shehane. We'll see this Saturday in a 3X600 and a Long Range weekend the week after, both at Camp Pendleton. If the ballistics can be applied, it will be tough to beat. Worth noting, The 2012 AZ Long Range, Palma and the 2013 Berger were all won by .300 WSM's. [br]
To 6BRinNZ: I look for five 5-shot <=.3" agg and <15 fps ES at 100 yards. I usually, but not always, shoot a few strings at 300 to get a feel for the load. And, I try hard to shoot a load in club matches before going to a major tournament.