Major Grouping Issue

[bertuzzi]

I'd love some experienced opinions here, I'll try to provide as much detail up front, here's the problem...

My 30-06 Rifle that has no problems shooting 0.5 inch 3 shot groups with handloaded 168Gr ELDM with H4350 powder charge of 58.4 grains with an OGIVE of 2.665. It shoots 0.8 inch 5 shot groups as well. This is a hunting rifle and this is more than good enough for me. I have shot hundreds of these rounds down this rifle with pretty consistent results.

I recently tried to make a new hunting round and I will provide the development data below. I am using a 180Gr Nosler Partition and have worked my way up with powder charge and have now started playing with seating depth. Through this process, my groups have been more than little large. I am talking 3, 4, 5 even 6 inch 4 shot groups. At one point in working on this load, I switched back to my 168Gr ELDM loads and shot a 4 shot group just under an inch. So the scope and the rifle are not the issue.

I started with a 57 grain charge of H4350 and worked all the way up to 58.4 grains. I found the most consistent SD and ES (even though these are small samples) was best at 58.2. I then started playing with the seating dept with the 58.2 grain charge, from 2.665 to 2.655 then 2.651 then 2.648 and the groups still seem to be crazy. Almost always, all 4 shots are all over, High, low, right, left. No real pattern to it and no consistency between shot groups. I have attached a picture of the best group I got and its just over 2 inches, with the second shot being a real flyer.

I would love some thoughts with what I can do to see some kind of change, because I am at a loss. I have approximately 60 180Gr Nosler Partitions down range and haven't even come close to anything that resembles a real group. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Here is the load data I recorded, if you have questions, let me know.

180GR NOSLER PT
57G - 2838, 2840, 2840, 2834, 2858 - SD 8.4 ES 24.3
57.4G - 2849, 2874, 2871, 2851, 2857 - SD 10.2 ES 24.9
57.6G - 2859, 2864, 2893, 2871 - SD 13 ES 34.9
57.8G - 2884, 2869, 2887, 2871 - SD 7.7 ES 17.7
58G - 2881, 2864, 2882, 2889 - SD 9 ES 24.6 (1 MAJOR FLYER, 3 SHOT GROUP AFTER THAT WAS 1.5 TO 2 INCHES.
58.2G - 2902, 2899, 2897, 2906 - SD 3.5 ES 9.2
58.3G - 2916, 2892, 2899, 2886 - SD 11.2 ES 29.9
58.4G -???, 2903 2881, 2891 - SD 9.1 ES 22.3

58.2G - 2919, 2876, 2895, 2888, 2880, 2890 - SD 13.8 ES 42.7 BETTER GROUP BUT ALWAYS A CRAZY FLYER.

58.2G 2.655 OGIVE - 2875, 2880, 2885, 2882, 2885 - SD 3.7 ES 10.2
58.2G 2.651 OGIVE - 2893, 2880, 2879 - SD 6.3 ES 14.1
58.2G 2.648 OGIVE - 2882, 2856, 2878 - SD 11.4 ES 25.9

Thanks,

 

[ELR LVR]

If your question is, why the 2 inch 100 yd group...
A = Have you adjusted seating depth or are you holding to one OAL?
Try getting within .030" off the lands then adjust out .005" at a time.
---
the only 30-06 I am working with uses 208 Amax /ELD's
so your load is totally in a different realm than what I am doing for 600 yds so I cannot comment other than to say
Your velocities look nice, and 4350 was always a very accurate powder in the appropriate case
---
OH, forgot to add, my last session with it at 600 yds I got some vertical stringing but windage was less than 2 inches
Which I attribute to the Rem 9-1/2 primers I was using
so I need to try some F-210's and BR-2's which should reduce the 600 yds group down to 2 inches
Bringing velocity SD's down closer to reduce the vertical stringing
---
You should try those 2 primers for better velocity consistency
---
FWIW, BR-2's, CCI 200, CCI 250's are all pretty much the same
so you can weigh and sort those close together also (in milligrams +/- .003 of each other)
---
have you deburred flash holes?
Weight sorted the brass?
All brass the same headstamp? vs mix/matched brass?

 

[6MMsteve]

the Nosler bullets just aint gonna shoot as good I have never had any that would group..I use customs or bergers smks, maybe someone else has but not me, I've shot them out of rifles that shot .2 or better and get horrendous groups..maybe someone has a secret

 

[Clancy]

Don’t throw good money after bad. The gun doesn’t like the bullet.

There’s no such thing as turning groups measured in inches into groups measured in tenths.

 

[1shot]

Don’t throw good money after bad. The gun doesn’t like the bullet.

There’s no such thing as turning groups measured in inches into groups measured in tenths.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^
I've never heard of or experienced a Nosler Partition that would shoot small. As previously stated, your rifle doesn't like them.

 

[Paddyd]

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^
I've never heard of or experienced a Nosler Partition that would shoot small. As previously stated, your rifle doesn't like them.

I had a older 1980s Ruger 77 in 270Win that would shoot 130gn partitions as good as any bullet which was about 3/4" @100 yds. It is the only rifle I ever shot the Noslers from though

 

[Jager]

..... I found the most consistent SD and ES (even though these are small samples) was.... I then started playing with the seating dept

Put away the chrono.

Run a powder charge ladder and let the target tell you if there is anything interesting. If there is, then run a seating depth test.

As others have said, there might not be anything worth exploring with a particular bullet or a particular powder.

 

[NF1E]

I think you found a bullet your rifle just doesn't like and won't stabilize. Back to the drawing board. Whatta Hobby!

 

[AlNyhus]

I've had excellent accuracy with the 180 Accubonds in multiple 30-06 and 300WSM guns.

You shouldn't condemn the bullets w/o trying another powder. Just because the H4350 worked with the 168 ELDM's doesn't mean it's going to work best with the 180 Accubonds. That's a good place to start but that's all it is...a starting point. There's a bit over .100" of difference between those bullets, too. If this barrel is a standard 10 twist .30, it will stabilize the AB's just fine. And it's possible your barrel just doesn't shoot that particular bullet very well. If you try a different powder and it still doesn't shoot well...the barrel just told you it doesn't like that bullet. In a case like the 30-06, .5 gr. increments are all that's needed for powder charge changes.

Hope this helps. -Al

 

[DHD]

I wouldn't put away the chronograph, but it is just a tool. IME, good "numbers" are great and all, but a bullet that just won't shoot in your barrel doesn't care about low sd's..

I have a couple boxes of those Partitions and probably have tried 10 out of one box and the other 50 bullet box is still sealed. Had them for probably 15-20 years. Maybe my son will try the same thing after I am gone and he will probably pass the sealed box down to his son....

I have always had good accuracy with Gamekings and Accubonds in 165 grain 30 cals. My load would mirror yours using H4350 (58-58.5 gr), but I either use old Wolf LRM or BR 2's.

The particular rifle I am referring to is a Rem 700 24". I keep meaning to rebarrel to either a Light or Medium Palma profile 26", but don't really shoot it anymore.

 

[L.Sherm]

Al makes a good point on powder that being said check the twist of your barrel with the ole cleaning rod method if its a 12 or slower it maybe futile to go any farther with that grain or length of bullet

 

[JFrank]

I think he’s trying to run them too darn fast with that powder.
I have an 06 I’m working on and took it out a few days ago after a tall ladder to this abbreviated ladder narrowing down my charges.
Using a 165 GK and H4350 at 200 yards , 57.0 is about the top and 57.2 is dropping away, beyond that they really get ugly.

 

[L.Sherm]

If you have a faster than 12 I would try a couple different primers then if nothing different powder something a little slower.

 

[L.Sherm]

It definitely would be worth a try to back it down 58 is hot, like 56.0 and see which primer it likes.

 

[Gary in MD]

Like suggested, try a different powder or two. Other than in .243” partitions, I never got the partitions to shoot as good as I wanted.
Assuming that you are looking for a tougher bullet for a certain hunting situation, I would try the Nosler Accubonds or the Barnes TTSX.
My 30-06 loves the 168 TTSX using H4350, it’s an awesome combination.

 

[AlNyhus]

Whether it's IMR4350 or H4350, you're way too high on the powder charge....especially at your starting point. The velocities your getting bear that out. From my notes with multiple 30-06's with the 180 Accubond, I start around 53.0 and top out at 56.5-57.0...depending on the gun.

It could be that simple. Nosler sure thinks so.

 

[PhilC]

Nosler's load data for the 180gr NPT w/H4350 is 56.5gr max, most accurate load tested was 52.5gr.

30-06 Springfield Load Data

Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.

www.nosler.com

 

[round]

What twist is the barrel ?

 

[243winxb]

56.5 H4350 is maximum at Nosler data. 180 gr bullets.

The Nosler generic load data will not work for all types of there bullets.
The bullet your using, will increase pressures over a plain lead core bullet.
Reduce the powder charge, working backwards.
Most accurate load tested- 52.5 grs.

https://www.nosler.com/30-06-springfield#U4P53M8

 

[243winxb]

Nosler's load data

Your faster then I