When to hone die neck - .0065" too much squeeze?

[BlackGrouper]

Trying to decide if I should send a Forster FL 6.5x55 die for honing.
Using Lapua brass turned .002" total I get neck diameters:

4-5x fired .2950"
Berger & Scenar loaded .2930"
Sized w/o expander .2865"
Die is sizing necks down .0065" from fired dimension.
I would like to use the expander ball to bump up for .002" neck tension.

I don't anneal, have 400pcs of this brass same lot no. to use for this barrel.

Would you send in the die to have Forster hone it? How much?

They recommend -.004" to -.005" from loaded round if using an expander ball.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It's a pretty fair amount of moving the brass. You want the die to give a dimension that's about .002-.003 smaller than your loaded round. That's after using whatever type of expander you're using and is why someone suggested .004-.005 smaller BEFORE expanding it back up. Bottom line, the sized case, ready for a bullet, should be .002-.003 smaller than it is after the bullet is seated. The "fired" dimension means nothing in regard to how much neck tension you're running. I will also add that you might wanna turn necks just a tad if your fired brass is .295 and your loaded round is .293. 002 clearance is pretty minimal by most people's standards. And if you turn necks, there's not much reason for a mandrel or expander button, IMHO.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

Mike over, the Case at, Neck with, a Bullet seated, then, subtract .003 to .004 and Have them, Hone it, out !
I ended up with, .002 to .0025 Tension with, the Above Honing Dim. ( Win, Rem & Norma, .22-250 Brass )
Spring Back is, a Beatch ! I'm NOW leaving my Cases, IN the Die for, 4 to 5 Seconds, to Avoid,.. "Springback".
Throw away, the Exp Ball ( Save, the depriming pin ). Make Sure that your Seating "Stem" is Polished ( Or, Bedded ) to Fit your High BC Bullet and Blammo,.. TIR's,.. .000 to, .002 Max !
With proper Powder OCW test, Matching Bullet to Twist, Sub 1/2 MOA w/ a Good Barrel / Rifle is, obtainable.
Love, My FORSTER Honed Dies,.. WITHOUT, the Expander Ball

 

[BlackGrouper]

Thanks for the help guys, going to send it to Forster and have it honed out .0035" to try for around .2900" sized without using expander ball.
I have 200pcs neck turned with another 200 in reserve if needed to shoot out this barrel, should have another 1500 to 2000 rds left in it.
Sizing the necks down .0025" instead of currently .0065" might get me there without needing to use the reserves. Shooting 140 Hybrids with 48.3gn H4831sc at 2875 for 1,000yd and 139 Scenars 47gn same powder for midrange.
Figured I have about .003" chamber neck clearance with brass turned .002" but extracts fine with velocities/psi signs normal during load workup. (Banard P1 action)

 

[AlNyhus]

Thanks for the help guys, going to send it to Forster and have it honed out .0035" to try for around .2900" sized without using expander ball.

Why not buy a barrel lap and hone it yourself? That way, you can creep up on the dimension that works best. -Al

 

[BlackGrouper]

Why not buy a barrel lap and hone it yourself? That way, you can creep up on the dimension that works best. -Al

I would but its only 26 bucks to have them do it and I can blame someone else when my math is wrong as usual!

 

[Kracken McGraw]

My theory is the expander ball pulls a donut out to be trimmed as extra case length, but I don’t know much. Lol.

 

[L.Sherm]

Why not just convert it to a bushing die and size what shoots the best.
I've had JLC do 3 and he's about to get another.
No expander or mandrel 1 pass with the appropriate bushing done!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ditch the expander button! I'll say no more on this subject. I've said what you need to know and so have others.

 

[LVLAaron]

Any time I buy a die, the button goes right into the trash.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

The Forster is the only company that has the expander in the right spot so that the case is supported.

 

[L.Sherm]

In my opinion there is no right spot running anything through the inside of a neck other than a stiff nylon brush right before powder a seating a bullet why do you wanna screw up good bullet lube.

 

[DShortt]

Why not buy a barrel lap and hone it yourself? That way, you can creep up on the dimension that works best. -Al

Where does one get these laps?

New info to me but I'm very interested.

 

[BlackGrouper]

Why not just convert it to a bushing die and size what shoots the best.
I've had JLC do 3 and he's about to get another.
No expander or mandrel 1 pass with the appropriate bushing done!

I would like to try that, can use the die when I rebarrel too.
Do you have his contact info?

 

[AlNyhus]

Where does one get these laps?

New info to me but I'm very interested.

They've been around and widely used for decades. Available for through holes and blind holes. McMaster-Carr, Penn Tool, MSC, etc, etc carry them.

Acro Lapping Tools Home Page - Barrel Laps - Blind Hole Laps - Needle Eye Laps

 

[L.Sherm]

I would like to try that, can use the die when I rebarrel too.
Do you have his contact info?

Here it is be careful theres a JLC Precision Machining in N.Y. but that is NOT Jim he is in Iowa.

 

[47WillysGuy]

Thanks for the help guys, going to send it to Forster and have it honed out .0035" to try for around .2900" sized without using expander ball.
I have 200pcs neck turned with another 200 in reserve if needed to shoot out this barrel, should have another 1500 to 2000 rds left in it.
Sizing the necks down .0025" instead of currently .0065" might get me there without needing to use the reserves. Shooting 140 Hybrids with 48.3gn H4831sc at 2875 for 1,000yd and 139 Scenars 47gn same powder for midrange.
Figured I have about .003" chamber neck clearance with brass turned .002" but extracts fine with velocities/psi signs normal during load workup. (Banard P1 action)

Hone the die to .0288"-0.289". Do away with the expander ball, which causes neck run out anyway. And if you want to experiment with neck thickness dimensions, you will have a margin of error.

Your final neck dimension of 0.290 requires a neck wall thickness of 0.013" which gives 0.0025 on a side between the chamber and the case neck. I cut necks and can not hold a perfect required thickness, always get a small plus or minus.

I'd shoot for a total of 0.005" total or .002 1/2 on the side. Good luck.

 

[ricco1949]

Why not buy a barrel lap and hone it yourself? That way, you can creep up on the dimension that works best. -Al

Al,

I've tried those barrel laps and silicone carbide on 20 and 22 caliber dies.

In every instance (3) the brass barrel wore away before the die neck was enlarged. Ultimately the brass barrel broke as I increased the tension on the barrel.

I know you and others have used them successfully but no go for me. I must be doing something wrong but couldn't figure it out.

I've resorted to buying carbide reamers for the dies I want to adjust...pretty easy fix.

 

[Oso]

This is contact info (might be stale) that I have for Jim. This is my backup in case I loose my Post-It stuck to beer fridge in garage.

JLC Precision - Jim Carstensen
jlcprec@netins.net
work: (563) 689-6258
mobile: (563) 212-2984

13095 450th Ave.
Bellevue, IA 52031