OT: Smallest cartridge for black bear

[3Ackleys]

Can you please point out the post where someone said bullets will bounce off a bear skull?
I can’t seem to find it.

HAHAHA
Couldn't find it because it was your post #57!
"The head will do a really good job of protecting the vitals. It’s pointy, round and hard. Does a very good job of deflecting bullets."

 

[Rick in Oregon]

Interesting read, interesting responses to a valid question.

After working and hunting in the logging woods in BC for years, having a bear encounter about weekly, then living here in central Orygun for many more years, hunting and out falling/cutting wood, I've had more bear experiences than I can count.

This old boy was cruising the log landing for a few days...



This one ended up in our back yard at our company house....



One morning I found my 3 year old son out back sitting with a yearling cub, feeding him an orange. Both sitting peacefully sharing the orange......I looked out the window and f'in totally freaked out! Coaxed son inside, the bear cub stood on his hind legs looking through the mud room glass door window before he got bored and wandered off back into the bush.

In all my bear encounters, I've never fired a shot, never really felt in danger, but always had a rifle or my Smith M29 Classic Hunter loaded with my hard cast Keith 245gr SWC's on my hip. When elk or deer hunting, I've encountered them (and cougars) on many occasions, but again, have never fired a shot.

We don't have to fear the bears, just understand them and give them the respect they deserve. Just about any firearm intended for big game would be enough, even that .243 with a good bullet, but in reality, having to shoot a black bear in self defense is a stretch in my experience. Not saying it couldn't happen, but having to actually shoot one would be rare. JME

 

[dellet]

HAHAHA
Couldn't find it because it was your post #57!
"The head will do a really good job of protecting the vitals. It’s pointy, round and hard. Does a very good job of deflecting bullets."

And that is absolutely correct.

When a pointy object, hits a wedge or round shaped object the possibility of deflection is high. This is why ribs often deflect bullets.

It’s not the strength of steel that makes a bullet trap work, it’s the angle of impact.

There is a huge difference in deflection and bouncing off.

 

[3Ackleys]

And that is absolutely correct.

When a pointy object, hits a wedge or round shaped object the possibility of deflection is high. This is why ribs often deflect bullets.

It’s not the strength of steel that makes a bullet trap work, it’s the angle of impact.

There is a huge difference in deflection and bouncing off.

Ok what is your first hand experience with ribs or skulls deflecting a bullet? It doesn't happen, it is pure fuddlore handed down from grand pappy.
There is no "huge difference in deflection and bouncing off" just semantics.
That you don't realize there IS a huge difference between a steel bullet trap and fragile bones, shows you have no understanding of the subject matter. And are offering advice based only your feelings.

 

[dellet]

Ok what is your first hand experience with ribs or skulls deflecting a bullet? It doesn't happen, it is pure fuddlore handed down from grand pappy.
There is no "huge difference in deflection and bouncing off" just semantics.
That you don't realize there IS a huge difference between a steel bullet trap and fragile bones, shows you have no understanding of the subject matter. And are offering advice based only your feelings.

First hand or witnessed?
I’ve luckily never been shot, so no first hand experiences.

Witnessed two skull shots that were exemplary.
Bar fight a friend was shot with a 25 ACP above the eye. Bullet traveled around the skull, lodged under the skin by the ear. But that’s a pretty low powered round.

Ranchers son who was allowed to put down on old bull that had chased him multiple times. 45 ACP right between the eyes. Wrong angle, one more chase.

Probably a dozen or so people admitting to shooting horses in the forehead, again wrong angle, bullet slid right up the skull and ripped an ear off on one.

There’s a reason hog hunters shy away from frontal head shots, but I’ve never shot a hog, so that doesn’t count. Might have to learn the hard way if I ever get the chance instead of listening to experience.

Human and animal autopsy results are probably off the table as hearsay.

My guess is that shooting through brush and tree limbs is also acceptable, since bullet deflection is a myth?

I’m guessing our life experiences are just different.

 

[3Ackleys]

First hand or witnessed?
I’ve luckily never been shot, so no first hand experiences.

Witnessed two skull shots that were exemplary.
Bar fight a friend was shot with a 25 ACP above the eye. Bullet traveled around the skull, lodged under the skin by the ear. But that’s a pretty low powered round.

Ranchers son who was allowed to put down on old bull that had chased him multiple times. 45 ACP right between the eyes. Wrong angle, one more chase.

Probably a dozen or so people admitting to shooting horses in the forehead, again wrong angle, bullet slid right up the skull and ripped an ear off on one.

There’s a reason hog hunters shy away from frontal head shots, but I’ve never shot a hog, so that doesn’t count. Might have to learn the hard way if I ever get the chance instead of listening to experience.

Human and animal autopsy results are probably off the table as hearsay.

My guess is that shooting through brush and tree limbs is also acceptable, since bullet deflection is a myth?

I’m guessing our life experiences are just different.

Ok more semantics, great...
I was talking about a 243 used on game animals, and you are giving examples of 25 acp and 45 acp??? Almost as useful as comparing animal skulls and ribs to steel.
My life experience is seeing animals shot with a 243- the entire reason for my post. You clearly have no experience with high power rifles used on big game- but like to think you know what would happen anyway. Never been there but you are what I hear facebook is like.

 

[dellet]

Ok more semantics, great...
I was talking about a 243 used on game animals, and you are giving examples of 25 acp and 45 acp??? Almost as useful as comparing animal skulls and ribs to steel.
My life experience is seeing animals shot with a 243- the entire reason for my post. You clearly have no experience with high power rifles used on big game- but like to think you know what would happen anyway. Never been there but you are what I hear facebook is like.

So exactly how many charging bears have you shot with a 243 in the forehead?

 

[wright brothers]

Did testing with domestic pig heads.
None glanced off.
No handguns penetrated.
The cast wadcutters outdid the JHPs.
The 22 kill floor rifle penetrated every time.
Hi-powers all smoked it.
It was all about the barrel length.
Don't tell Dirty Harry, Sally, or Google.

 

[John Forrest]

Tim Wells killed a bear with a blowgun on his u tube. Sat in bait pile, 10' shot.

 

[Gary in MD]

Tim Wells killed a bear with a blowgun on his u tube. Sat in bait pile, 10' shot.

He's killed quite a bit with a spear also

 

[nakneker]

I use to live in a Bristol Bay back in the early nineties, participated in a dozen brown bear hunts. Had several brown bear encounters while fishing silvers in that area and Kodiak island area. Hunted bears in Arizona a lot. Black bears vs brown bears are two different worlds but people often make the mistake of not taking black bears seriously. Bears are like humans, every once in awhile you cross paths with a human or a bear that just has a chip on their shoulder, they are mean, they are grouchy and they don’t play by the rules. While most black bears will avoid you it’s the small % of bears that you just hope you don’t run into to that cause concern.

We’ve called bears on the San Carlos reservation here in Arizona for a lot, it’s fun and you have to have patience but when it happens it makes it worth while. We call canyon country were we usually spot the bear at very safe distances and haven’t had the misfortune of having a nasty close encounter but the chances of that event happening go up when your specially out their trying to attract their attention or a coyotes attention. We have had few very close encounters while fishing the black river, hunting the White Mountains and cutting wood in units that have bears. I’ve only had one big bear that held its ground and acted like it was on crack, bear spray did the trick, I’m grateful it went the way it did.

To answer or comment on your original question I think a 243 loaded with the right ammo would probably be just fine. I wouldn’t opt for the ELDX though, I think better options are accubonds, partitions, Barnes or a quality cup and core bullet. If it was me I’d probably opt for a AR10 with a cartridge with a bigger bore than .243 but that’s just me. That fact your packing a 44 mag kinda offsets that notion though.

Your concern is valid though. In many parts of the country, areas that in past didn’t have many bears or maybe no bears have changed with the many states limiting the hunting opportunities. Just last month a lady was killed in Colorado by a Mtn lion, animal encounters by bear, lion and wolves are certainly on the increase. We hunt and play in the Blue wilderness a lot here in Az and we all are carrying handguns during the off season down there due to the explosion of Apex predators in that area. Elk and deer numbers are certainly declining while wolves are exploding, lions are on the increase, bears too.

Good to see you getting back into it! Best of luck!

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Mike you should use what you are most comfortable with. Otherwise your calling success will be compromised by the little voice in the back of your head. You need to be hunting, not thinking about being hunted. Your the top predator.

 

[Big Mc]

The point you may be overlooking is when you surprise a bear near a carcass or a sow with cubs can be extremely aggressive and surprisingly fast, you won’t outrun a bear and even a 100 pound black bear can rip you a new ass real quick if provoked.
And if provoked is where the heavier caliber is warranted.

How big are your Huevos ?? Tommy Mc

 

[SD guy]

243 might be a bit large. I would choose a bolt action 6mm ARC with a 90 grain all copper HNDY CX offering shot placement would most important over head stamp. Then absolutely bullet construction matters. Heck if you are hunting close a 7.62 x 39 with a good bullet could do very well also.

 

[JFrank]

How big are your Huevos ?? Tommy Mc

They’re getting smaller !! I used to go into some very thick stuff by myself with a 30-30 a knife and a short rope but lately I’m feeling a bit vulnerable , even a small bear can rip a stump apart quite easily.

 

[Turkeytider]

Your 44mag is perfect for woods defense. I finally bought a 10mm with the same intent.

Rokslide has plenty of evidence that a 223 with a 77gr TMK will put down a bear.

Well, those boys pretty much think that a 223 shooting a 77 TMK is good for everything from field mice to blue whales.

 

[DShortt]

Well, those boys pretty much think that a 223 shooting a 77 TMK is good for everything from field mice to blue whales.

Ya'll go be you. I'll stay here.

Don't call for help.

I didn't tell you to mess around and find out.

YOU did that.

 

[Turkeytider]

The proponents of smaller caliber ( .223 ) for large and potentially dangerous game ( big bear ) acknowledge that shot placement is key. Somebody somewhere along the way quoted somebody else that, to paraphrase, said, “ I don’t want a gun that will do the job when everything goes perfectly, I want a gun that will do the job when everything goes wrong. “ I personally think that’s a wise and prudent philosophy, particularly when it comes to something like a big bear.

 

[effendude]

This has been an interesting discussion. Imagine being hidden in a bush or in front of a tree calling yotes when a bear or cougar surprises you, probably at a close distance. The gun in your hand is only one you'll have time to use. We aren't talking about a careful, well aimed shot or two. It is going to happen in an instant. You won't have time to transition to a handgun or aim small at an animal moving at 30 mph toward you.

I have had two cougars sneak up on me while sounding like a love struck cow elk. Both times I was lucky enough to notice them and had time to yell and stand up before they decided they wanted to pounce. Most bears aren't going to sneak in, they will come in fast.

 

[JFrank]

We have some decent lions around the cabin also, my lion encounter wasn’t as large as my friend here but regardless, it’s rare to get a shot at one without dogs to tree it, normally they’ll stay hidden and just watch you, unless you sound or smell like dinner…