Annealing - who knew

[PatMiles]

When I walk by-----a lot of people ANNEAL!

GROAN!
Don't quit your day job!

 

[ELR LVR]

Yeah, annealing is too subjective without laboratory testing. Who can consistently read the exact flame temperature from one session to the next and then throw in the method of annealing….socket/drill, flame machine or induction machine?

Well,
All I can say is my annealing method is always the same
and my results are always good
I keep it simple
---
since I do the simplest possible thing
I am thinking many others are simply overcomplicating
or TRYING to overcomplicate
what should be a very simple metallurgical process
---
Like hardening steel
or annealing Manganese
I guess having studied metallurgy from being a Welder for years helped out
Things like dont get stainless too hot or the different elemental metals will dissassociate and
precipitate out individually , rendering it no longer stainless steel
Brass can do the same thing
---
I'll stick to what I'm doing and forgo the complicated electronics
Same as I dont need an electronic processor to even TIG weld lol
---
But Gadgets are cool, I respect that

 

[qldreloader]

My experience has been that brass that hadn't been fully "annealed" on a flame annealer still lasts longer than un-annealed brass before the necks split. I can only assume that partial annealing also partially removes work hardening. From that perspective it's worthwhile even if underdone.

 

[KMW 1954]

More evidence in a controlled environment:

And I put his data on a spreadsheet:

That's about on Par with what I found in my 223.

 

[ELR LVR]

My experience has been that brass that hadn't been fully "annealed" on a flame annealer still lasts longer than un-annealed brass before the necks split. I can only assume that partial annealing also partially removes work hardening. From that perspective it's worthwhile even if underdone.

I would agree
I have experimented with less time in the flame, at a lower temp
to try and achieve more "Springiness"
I would say doing as you suggest, helps with providing more "Springiness"
---
That would be something I think using an AMP annealer would benefit from

 

[Straightshooter1]

Well I’m just a dumb Benchrest shooter and I’m not asking anyone to agree but from my perspective the best way to extend brass life is with a die that fits the chamber well and doesn’t stretch brass more than minimum required to chamber freely before and after ignition.

Since annealing is about resetting the hardness after the brass has been work hardened from going through a lot of movement, minimizing the amount of movement goes a long way to where annealing might be avoided all together. Custom chambers with custom sizing dies can definitely to that. Not a great many of us reloaders have that luxury.

From my unscientific testing, annealing does indeed soften brass so for those cartridges that like plenty of bullet hold , annealing is going the wrong direction.

Yeah . . . depending on how far one softens the brass.

Bullet hold/ neck tension is one aspect of tuning that will show on the target far more than any sizing inconsistency.

And more than just how soft the brass is effects "bullet hold/neck tension", like. . . neck wall interference, neck wall thickness and diameter/caliber of the neck. Huh?

My experience has been that brass that hadn't been fully "annealed" on a flame annealer still lasts longer than un-annealed brass before the necks split. I can only assume that partial annealing also partially removes work hardening. From that perspective it's worthwhile even if underdone.

First, I don't think anyone wants or should want to "fully anneal" brass as that means all ductility has been removed, which can present some big problems. But, I assume you really meant by "fully annealed" is that which is of the ideal softness/hardness. My observation over many years now is that very very few reloaders using a flame annealer are getting near the ideal that they think they are (that was me). And they've indeed seen some improvement in their brass life. Therefore I agree that that can be worthwhile. . . just not getting the full benefit of what annealing can bring to the table.

 

[hoz53]

I put a new scope on my 223 bolt gun and went to sight it in. No problem there, but the 5 shot groups were bad. They didn’t use to be bad. The problem wasn’t the rifle or the scope, or me. I decided to throw away that used Lapua brass, but was instead talked into annealing it. After the annealing, I loaded up some new Lapua cases, just to make sure my old trusty load was still good, and it was. Next up was the annealed brass, and lo and behold they shot into groups 1/2” to “3/4”. Prior to annealing, the groups were over twice that size.

Tomorrow is Starline brass day, finding the good load. H335, BR4 primers, and 65 gr Sierra GKs.

i used to anneal my accuracy rifle loads once in awhile but started annealing them every firing some time ago and i found it makes a differance. better ES

 

[L.Sherm]

People talk all this scientific stuff whats so scientific about a target?

 

[hoz53]

Since annealing is about resetting the hardness after the brass has been work hardened from going through a lot of movement, minimizing the amount of movement goes a long way to where annealing might be avoided all together. Custom chambers with custom sizing dies can definitely to that. Not a great many of us reloaders have that luxury.


Yeah . . . depending on how far one softens the brass.

And more than just how soft the brass is effects "bullet hold/neck tension", like. . . neck wall interference, neck wall thickness and diameter/caliber of the neck. Huh?



First, I don't think anyone wants or should want to "fully anneal" brass as that means all ductility has been removed, which can present some big problems. But, I assume you really meant by "fully annealed" is that which is of the ideal softness/hardness. My observation over many years now is that very very few reloaders using a flame annealer are getting near the ideal that they think they are (that was me). And they've indeed seen some improvement in their brass life. Therefore I agree that that can be worthwhile. . . just not getting the full benefit of what annealing can bring to the table.

i have almost talked myself into an AMP— something that not long ago i thought Id never want.

 

[Straightshooter1]

i have almost talked myself into an AMP— something that not long ago i thought Id never want.

If I had the $$$$$ for an AMP, I think I'd go with ADG's ARC Annealer instead, which gives the user more and easier control over the annealing process + the feeder and I think is uses some kind of ferrite flux concentrator (similar to what's been used in an Annie) instead of a coil for the magnetic field.

 

[Fuj]

People talk all this scientific stuff whats so scientific about a target?

It's the end device to plot and record your work, can't get anymore
scientific then that.....

 

[Fuj]

I use gas. I converted my annealer some time ago to a twin burner
running off my homes natural gas. An AMP would never be in my
future......Looking at an AGS to set up and just run my real short BR
type cases, and leave the other as is.

 

[L.Sherm]

It's the end device to plot and record your work, can't get anymore
scientific then that.....

100% so why not let the target tell you wether to anneal or not other than some scientific data, temp, research.

 

[AlNyhus]

'Annealing' is like the term 'benchrest'. It can mean a lot of different things to different people. Kinda' like "...hand me a kleenex."

I refer to what I do as stress relief or drawing back...which is the correct term from a metallurgist's perspective. There are highy competitive Benchrest competitors (note the capital 'B' ) that intentionally don't stress relieve ('anneal) because of how they run their tuneup.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jimmymac]

I have been looking for that capital B for a long time Al.

 

[BoydAllen]

I know of some top shooters that do anneal, and others that don't. Each has done his own testing. One thing that does not get much internet discussion is that some powders seem to favor more neck grip on bullets, and others less. ln short range two that are different are 133 and LT32. In long range, with the smaller cases, H4895 and Varget. Sometimes I have seen good shooters make recommendations because of the results they have gotten when shooting one particular powder, but they given the advice as if their found truth is universal.

 

[450BM]

I use gas. I converted my annealer some time ago to a twin burner
running off my homes natural gas. An AMP would never be in my
future......Looking at an AGS to set up and just run my real short BR
type cases, and leave the other as is.

I’ve never thought of using the natural gas I use to heat my shop…. I use a 25lb propane tank, which works well, but my casting table is right next to the shop heater so it would an ideal setup! Thanks for the idea!

I’m guessing I would need a different torch head for the NG?

BB

 

[L.Sherm]

Personally I think Boyd makes a good point its why I say let the target tell you just like powder, primers bullets etc. not a blanket statement either way.

 

[M-61]

I don't know how anyone can possibly get 25+ loads on a case without annealing

You now know of one now so to speak.
I don’t anneal.
My 30BR has over 25 for sure. My 222 I’d have to guess. Had it since the mid 70’s. So 50 would be extremely conservative.
They both (actually 2 30BR’s ) and the 222 shoot just fine groups at what I do which is 100 yard benchrest. Never annealed.

 

[M-61]

Don’t think it’s too bad: