300 Norma Mag Improved VS the 338 Norma Mag Improved

[LRPV]

What shoulder angle are you leaning towards?

I’m not sure. I assumed 40° but most I’ve been reading about are 35°.

 

[Sniper338]

I have a 338 lapua custom. I don't NEED anything more.... but if I did anything 338 again it'd be bigger than a lapua... 338 XC or 338-375... but the 375 is a cheytac bolt face.

There's no reason to jump from 300 norma AI to 338 lapua.

338 bullets are expensive.... anything big is EXPENSIVE to feed.

Honestly I wouldn't mind changing my lapua to an 33xc to get the added benefit... but I have 338 lapua brass.... and no xc brass/dies... and just that in itself is an expensive change.

 

[ISS]

Wheeler 35* is very hard to argue with...

another cool thing about the 300 NMI is that the case actually shrinks about .030" when you fireform it so you don't need to trim it to load.

 

[Mike TackleBerry]

I have a 338 lapua custom. I don't NEED anything more.... but if I did anything 338 again it'd be bigger than a lapua... 338 XC or 338-375... but the 375 is a cheytac bolt face.

There's no reason to jump from 300 norma AI to 338 lapua.

338 bullets are expensive.... anything big is EXPENSIVE to feed.

Honestly I wouldn't mind changing my lapua to an 33xc to get the added benefit... but I have 338 lapua brass.... and no xc brass/dies... and just that in itself is an expensive change.

I almost built a 338 Snipetac, but 400-round barrel life turned me away from the extreme overbore 33s.

 

[ShaunBrady]

I have all the parts to put together an extended range fun gun in 338 Norma IMP. After reading a little more and seeing the popularity of the 300 version as well as the cost of 338 bullets, I'm second guessing my decision to go 338.

Intentions are to build this as a repeater for out to a mile maybe more. My thoughts were like an ELR PRS match rifle even though I'll probably never shoot matches with it.

Action is a BAT HR set up to run the longest cartridges it can. Plan on sticking to the Norma case to be able to mag feed it without having to seat the bullets deep in the case. If I were to single feed, might go with the Lapua but that's not what I want to do right now.

Any advice on one over the other? What twist and bullet in a 30?

If you don't have a copy of QL and some practice using it, the metric that gives the strongest indication of ballistic potential is the ratio of the case volume to the bore area. To a large degree, the performance of a given cartridge can be approximated in another caliber by adjusting the case size. That metric is also a solid first cut at barrel life.

With everything else held constant, moving from 338 to 30 caliber picks up more performance than can be had from improving the case. Figure cashing out about 1/3 to 1/2 the barrel life moving from 338 to 30 with the same case. From the 30 caliber perspective, the 338 barrel lasts half again to twice as long. My take on the MRAD sniper rifle cartridge selection is the user replaceable barrel made the 300 Norma feasible for military sniping use. It wasn't going to last a full deployment otherwise. The 338 barrel is provided because they were heading that direction with the SAW and the 300 just was just too hard on barrels for full auto use.

What the actual barrel life is depends on how you shoot and your retirement criteria. Using the metric, a 338 Norma will have approximately the barrel life of a 7 saum, 6.5 PRC, or 6 CM. In 30 caliber, it splits the difference between 300 WSM and 300 WM. A 300 Norma will be closer to a 338 Lapua Improved or 7/300 WM.

The short version of that is whatever savings there will be in bullets, it'll be more than offset in barrel costs.

The relationship between the 338 Norma and 338 Lapua is a lot like 308 and 30/06. Yea, there is a drop in performance but it's just not all that. Another perspective is the remaining case volume in a 338 Lapua with a 300 grain bullet loaded to fit in a CIP (3.75" COAL) magazine is about the same as a 338 Norma Improved with the same bullet at the same length.

The 338 Norma is overkill for recreational shooting at 1500 yards. If you want one, build it. If you want to Improve it, do it. Just get it out of your system. Depending on how you're wired, a few hundred rounds into it you may realize that the 7 saum guys are doing it the cheap way. Another thing that may fade with time for that type of shooting is the desire to mag feed.

If you do the 30, I run 1:8 for everything ELR from 300WM to 300 Lapua Improved. 1:9 works well up to 230 grain bullets. Again, that's a first cut. Elevation makes a significant difference. With the 300 Norma, everything from the 215 hybrids to 250 Atips have worked well for somebody. I have a 24" 300WM R700 with the 24" factory 1:10 5R barrel on it. Out to a mile, it's hit percentage is awkwardly close to dedicated ELR rifles on a steel IPSC using 215 Hybrids.

 

[ISS]

I pretty much agree with Shaun. I have about 450 of the 245gr Sierra's to shoot up. The first 25 rounds should tell the accuracy tale.
The 300 NMI just intrigues me, and the results out to/past a mile are hard to argue with. I have two 1000 yard ranges less than an hours drive West of me to shoot several matches this year.

Ask me again in May...

Rich

 

[ShaunBrady]

I have a KO2M Day 1 course set up a half hour away. It uses permanently set highly reactive targets at 4 distances from 1200 to 2300 yards. The owner of the ranch that hosts it jokes about making gates out of all the barrels I've retired up there.

The NorCal URSA range is 90 minutes away. There are target pads from 2100 to 3700 yards. Add maybe 30-45 minutes on each end to set a target. I usually only set one.

That's a lot of fairly accessible ELR. I still try to avoid using the few days a year where wind, weather, lighting, and berm responsiveness are choice to just confirm the barrel is done. It shows up beyond 2000 yards in the form of vertical spread long before it shows up in 100 yard groups.

 

[ISS]

Can't beat that, Shaun!!

 

[Sgt. Brumbaugh]

The increased barrel life in the larger calibers is what has pushed me as a former Marine Sniper towards those larger calibers for military use. The bottom line is for military use (other than the obvious accuracy requirements) is durability in theatre. A 338 Lapua, etc, that will have 50-ish% more barrel life is (in most cases) a better military option than a 300 Norma. The Norma is really hard on barrels; I have been through 3 barrels in a 300 NMI. The 375 Swiss is interesting, so would be a simple 375 Lapua. I have a 375 LAI reamer I may mess with just out of curiosity re: barrel life / ELR.

As for the question as hand, if it were me and I was anything but a completive ELR shooter, I would probably go with the 338 for all the reasons Shaun listed.

 

[ISS]

Recoil is waaaay less in the 300N or NMI. Accuracy is much better, and the rifle is a lot lighter, and a spare barrel and bolt in 300WM weights less. And you can carry a lot more ammunition, which is a concern for field troops.
I own both, so my observations are from actual experience lugging them around in a hard case and 50 rounds of ammunition. You will need a 338L that is five to eight pounds heavier to equalize recoil levels on the 300NMI, and your 50 rounds of ammo will be significantly heavier as well. When I served in a Ranger Company in RVN nobody carried our gear for us on Recon.

 

[Sgt. Brumbaugh]

Recoil is waaaay less in the 300N or NMI. Accuracy is much better, and the rifle is a lot lighter, and a spare barrel and bolt in 300WM weights less. And you can carry a lot more ammunition, which is a concern for field troops.
I own both, so my observations are from actual experience lugging them around in a hard case and 50 rounds of ammunition. You will need a 338L that is five to eight pounds heavier to equalize recoil levels on the 300NMI, and your 50 rounds of ammo will be significantly heavier as well. When I served in a Ranger Company in RVN nobody carried our gear for us on Recon.

Just for the sake of debate, the rifles would weigh the same. They are both Lapua bolt faces with 3.77 in mags. I don't see how the 300 NM would weigh less.

Ammo would be about 730 grains for the Lapua and 645 for the Norma=13%. As someone who has also lugged heavy military equipment around, I would agree that is a consideration, although 100 rounds of Lapua would weigh around 10.42 lbs and the Norma would be 9.2 lbs. 1.2 lbs per 100 rounds ain't much to worry about.

I ran the numbers in a recoil calculator (245 at 2850 vs. 300 at 2750) and the Lapua would need to weigh 4 lbs more than the Norma for the same recoil- but I don't really see that as very significant, they would both have brakes or cans to reduce the recoil. Is the Norma more inherently accurate than the Lapua? Probably, but not enough to matter in 99% of the cases would be my wager.

I would prefer something that would stay in tune for a much longer period of time- particularly considering how long it could be to get a barrel replaced, etc. I think the approximately 50% greater barrel life of the Lapua makes it more suitable for most snipers in the Military. The tier one guys with unlimited money would probably make better use with the Norma.

I do know that some of the top tier snipers have gone away from Norma to the PRC, this trend has been reflected in the NF steel challenge was well. It used to be the 300 Norma would occupy almost all of the top spots, not as much anymore.

Fun debate.....

 

[ISS]

Good thought. Imagine Army and the Corps agreeing on something in ordnance...

With the 300NM and 300WM you just have 30 caliber cleaning equipment to lug around.

I guess, for Civilian use it comes down to preference and cost.

 

[FeMan]

I agree with you Sgt. I would add though that the Nightforce match isnt a good match to use to gage real ELR calibers. The average shot at NF is not very far. With short time-of-flight, its much more advantageous to have a rifle with a small recoil impulse to accurately spot shots. I shot my 284 Win and did very well at NF against the 300 Normas. My best year I finished in the top 10 shooting a 6.5 CM (156 EOL at 2820).

 

[ISS]

I would think, 300NM brass is easier and cheaper to find. FeMan tells me the NM shortens about .030" when fire forming to WMI so you will not spend a lot of time trimming the cases. His crew shoots at two 1000yd ranges less than an hour from us. They also have a range laid out about ninety (?) minutes East of that allows out to 2400 yards. NO match fees at any of them, just be a member.
It just reads out simpler and less $ per round fired.
At 76 I like that package.

 

[moondog]

When I started this silly sport 20 plus years ago shooting field type matches, way before PRS was a thing. Everyone was shooting 7s or 30s. I showed up with a Savage 6BR and was told it wasn't enough. Now it or a variant are the norm.
I ran my 338Imp single shot at the 2nd KRG. While I did get a second place finish, it was WAY too much gun. Especially when movers are involved. My buddy shot a 6.5 PRC 3rd year KRG and did VERY well. Bigger and faster is not always better.

 

[Sgt. Brumbaugh]

Some great points above. The guy who won NF last year was shooting a 7PRCW. In field type ELR-ish shooting events- a great Indian with a good arrow is going to be tough to beat. There are lots of caliber / cartridge / bullet combinations that was capable of winning the NF. You don't "need" the best one (whatever that is) to win.