Shooting Associations -- Freedom, IBS, NBRSA, UBR,++

[Tom E]

I was going to stay out of this thread and just follow along,

I just want to get one thing straight from Sara and I, long before we even knew anything about a freedom deal even existed, yes believe it or not we had no idea, which is fine by me, I try to stay in my lane as much as possible!
This was not a take over

Sara and I already had discussed many times that last summer, we were done, no one but her and I knew it, the only thing we knew for sure, we were going to have matches, but they were definitely not going to be IBS,
I’m not going in to reasons why, but anybody that last few years that actually ran a match knows.

It was a hard decision because if it weren’t for the Dick Grosbier’s, Jeff Stover’s, Joan Borden, Dave Matthews
I probably wouldn’t be doing what I am.

I have talked to our shooter base every time something come up, because without them the valley is just a field in nowhere Missouri, I value their opinions.

 

[tom]

If IBS was such a marvelous organization why have there been multiple times when it splintered?
This time has much more momentum than the last and has far exceeded all expectations had at its startup. There must be a reason.

Yes, it's called weak and poor leadership at the time. It's a little beyond a coincidence now looking back actually. Every issue that was of any significance was handled poorly at best. That leadership has moved on to "greener pastures".

If you really want it spelled out I can certainly do that for you Jerry, but I'd prefer not to here if at all possible. My number is on the IBS website if you have a wholesome desire to know the facts as I know them.

Thanks, Tom

At 1000 yards Some shot 1 target per event and had a shoot off. Others shot 2 targets and had a shoot off. Some shot a 2 target agg.

Why was that do you think? I too "noticed" that, but it seems that trying to get everyone to follow the rules/bylaws was a bigger "problem" than it was worth pursuing. Just take my word for it!

Tom

IBS was not perfect. I remember calling a high ranking member. I actually wanted to move away from the IBS. In good form I was talked out of it at the time for many reasons. GOOD ones, Now here we are.

I remember that too! Ironic to say the least!

Tom

 

[DHuffman]

Maybe I'm wrong about this but that's never stopped me before.

i had a really long post going then deleted it all down to this.

A guy told me once the best way to increase attendence at matches was do match reports on the internet with results and lots of pictures of people having a good time. As a group were failing miserably at that here.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Your reputation as a gun builder and shooter is stellar.
I would think someone in your position would want to have friends in EVERY shooting organization.
As with many in any shooting organization (that includes IDPA, USPSA, F-Class and others) that would like to see a rule change or even a leadership change. Will Freedom survive trying to encompass venues and organizations that want to do things "the way they have done them"? So far so good I think.

I do. I have great friends in all of them. The best people I have ever known really. But that doesnt mean we cant talk about the direction of our sport and we do without any issues. I can talk politics or what ever and not hate the other guy. I think a discussion even if we disagree is ok.

Edit: after talking so some people I realize I did not do a great job of making my point. I just would like to see everyone under the same roof shooting the same game with same rules. If thats Freedom or any other Im good with that.

 

[Mulligan]

Maybe I'm wrong about this but that's never stopped me before.

i had a really long post going then deleted it all down to this.

A guy told me once the best way to increase attendence at matches was do match reports on the internet with results and lots of pictures of people having a good time. As a group were failing miserably at that here.

Dave,
This right here is actually very important.
People from around the globe have sent me emails and PM's about little stuff they picked out of the photos. Folks can be timid to step into long range benchrest (LRBR). Questioning their ability, gear, etc.. In the pics, they see someone just like them with the same quality of equipment. As an example, when we built frames to hold two record targets and a sighter target to see if the shot marker system could handle three targets on one frame. Adam and his team worked with us and folks from all over the globe were watching. Those folks contacted us and now, there are more ranges hosting benchrest matches.
It helps us all grow our sport together, make friends, and bond.

Working on what we have in common is much more productive than focusing on the differences. The OP asked a good question. Helping good folks get started and understand the rules is something all of us should engage in.

CW

 

[Mulligan]

I was going to stay out of this thread and just follow along,

I just want to get one thing straight from Sara and I, long before we even knew anything about a freedom deal even existed, yes believe it or not we had no idea, which is fine by me, I try to stay in my lane as much as possible!
This was not a take over

Sara and I already had discussed many times that last summer, we were done, no one but her and I knew it, the only thing we knew for sure, we were going to have matches, but they were definitely not going to be IBS,
I’m not going in to reasons why, but anybody that last few years that actually ran a match knows.

It was a hard decision because if it weren’t for the Dick Grosbier’s, Jeff Stover’s, Joan Borden, Dave Matthews
I probably wouldn’t be doing what I am.

I have talked to our shooter base every time something come up, because without them the valley is just a field in nowhere Missouri, I value their opinions.

This made me chuckle.

We were in the same boat, I reached out to Jason (one of the NBRSA match directors on the west coast) and asked him about NBRSA. We were done with IBS and need to land somewhere. After that conversation, I knew we were not going to NBRSA (( no tactical program, Have to shoot LG first (we have shooters that only shoot HG and wanted a crack at the nicer conditions in the AM), Relay one shoots all four targets before relay two gets to come to the line, and the list goes on)). So we had discussions about going out on our own........... When we got the call, Freedom was an easy decision.

CW

 

[Mulligan]

Not to say anyone should care but Im game to help in any way I can. Im all in to fix this.

Alex,
I suspect we are closer now to having all the long range clubs under one roof than we ever have been. Except of course when the good folks in PENN were the only ones shooting it.

In the 600 yard game there are 22 clubs active in 2025.
13.5% NBRSA
22.7% IBS
63.6% Freedom

In the 1000 yard game, there are 11 active clubs in 2025.
9% NBRSA
9% IBS
82% Freedom

All added up, there are 238 registered Long Range Benchrest matches hosted in the USA in 2025.
That is all three organizations and both yardages combined.
NBRSA 25 total matches for 10.5%
IBS 47 total matches for 19.7%
Freedom 166 total matches for 70%

The answer is easy,
Freedom has the majority because the ranges and shooters feel they are represented better.

Each shooter is represented by their Range Owner or Match Director in the Freedom program. Every voice is heard locally. The person that represents the local shooters votes on any rule changes or other issues nationally. No overhead/ BOD votes. The SHOOTERS run the rules.......... as it should be.

Alex, I have no idea as to whether we will ever get 100%of the ranges under one roof or not, I really don't.
But I can say, we are closer now.

I will add,
I wish to express many thanks to the volunteers at freedom who keep track of the different stats, track points, manage awards, manage the website, solicit funding, etc.
Sending ZERO funds back to Freedom after a match is a win for the ranges. Collecting ZERO membership fees from the members is a win for the shooters.

Kind Regards
CW

 

[9146gt]

It is not just shooting, motorsports has been at it for years. NASCAR and IndyCar have two very different track length measurements to make it very hard to compare speeds and time.
I just enjoy shooting. Go to a club follow the rules and enjoy being with friends
Tom

 

[Mulligan]

It is not just shooting, motorsports has been at it for years. NASCAR and IndyCar have two very different track length measurements to make it very hard to compare speeds and time.
I just enjoy shooting. Go to a club follow the rules and enjoy being with friends
Tom

Well said!
CW

 

[shoot4fun]

@tom if you are happy where you are and have no desire to do anything else or do it differently then why would you first consider any other organization. I am happy doing what I am doing and, after staying in both IBS and Freedom I made a decision to not be part of IBS any longer. I don't miss it but that is just me. I do know some who still shoot under both flags. Why would I change?
I really don't want your "Facts" as to why I and a vast majority of long range shooters are "wrong" in our choice.
As @9146gt states, it is about shooting!

 

[Wooten]

I started shooting IBS long range benchrest 10-12 years ago. When the “big divorce” came I decided to stay with IBS, due to my own reasons that I will not air out in a public forum. If you want to know my reasons then look me up at a match, and I will be glad to give my “opinion”.

I see a lot of post under this thread with percentages. I would like to see one with the percentage of attendance across the country from one year to the next. I have wanted to put these numbers together for the last few years, but working 2 jobs and trying to keep rifles in tune has limited my available time. Sadly enough, the sport of Long Range Benchrest, that we all love so much, has been slowly dying over time regardless of the banner hanging on the wall.

 

[ev780]

Just one guy's opinion on the portion of the conversation about dwindling numbers and why I passed on competing despite really wanting to shoot competitively.


I have been active in IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge over the years. I got a little long in the tooth for running and gunning so I started in the rifle world. PRS and NRL22 didn't fit for the same reasons.

The benchrest and F-class game sounded like just the ticket. Crawled the internet and talked (tried anyway) to guys at some of the ranges I frequent. I found most of them standoffish and secretive. I had one guy who wouldn't shake my hand or give his name when I introduced myself. Total tool.

That crap happens. Undeterred, I joined discussion boards, watched videos, all the usual internet stuff to learn more. Quickly learned there was no handicapping or stratification of competitors. Line up on the bench and shoot. I could just envision finding myself in mid-pack all the damn time and not really knowing if I'm progressing. I've been playing golf long enough to know how frustrating it is to not win. I don't expect to win every time but languishing just out of the money forever is it's own kind of hell!

I read about having a great barrel that they take off to save for competition and practice with another one. Easy to do when Frank Green sends a box of barrels via UPS. Not so easy when you gotta spend a grand each. Or a bunch of tools and then it's only $500 per. That's just barrels! The equipment race is insanely expensive!

I read about the need for different rifle system for every different type of competition. F-class ...7-6.5. Bench group... 6PPC. Bench score.... .30 BR. PRS...... 6 Dasher. Then they change the rules and we start all over again. I know you can cross pollinate some of those, but the internet doesn't make it feel that way. The cost gets staggering quickly. I mentioned golf earlier and although I'm far from poor, having two hobbies where I spend a ton of money to be average sucks.

Then there is the scoring margin issue. I know there is a lot of internet hyperbole but there just seems to be nowhere to fit in. Groups are too small and scores are too high. As an example I looked up scores from a recent benchrest for score competition. My eye was drawn to one poor bastard who shot a 9 in his second bull of the event. Clean otherwise but finished mid pack! No thanks.

I read about needing to have a $3,000 front rest that I have to wait a year for from Asia, custom made stock from the Banyon tree in Maui, $3 a piece brass and custom bullets dipped in unicorn pee or I could forget about winning.

All in all I got discouraged with the whole scene and just decided stay home and compete against myself with whatever I have. And from what I understand, no pit duty.

Potential solutions since I was taught not to just bitch but bring solutions.

1. Handicapping system so we can progress through the sport and see our progress.
2. Firearm classifications other than weight. For example limit the rests. Simple fixed width bipod and a rear bag. Factory ammo only. Factory barrels only. There's got to be others. Bring the shooter back to the game. Pandora lives here I know that but it can be done.
3. The places where we can shoot targets at 1000 yards or even 600 can be challenging. Long Range steel is easy to find but targets not so much. Gotta find a way to make sub 600 competitive, inviting and fun.
4. The records are over. .007 group size? That's not a group its a hole. And totally subjective. Forget about it. Lets move on.

 

[JFrank]

Might be fair to say that a person can compete on a budget, you don’t need the latest and greatest equipment, just decent equipment and learn how to use it.
As an overview ;
You put in your work and shoot against yourself each time even though there are others on your relay, it only matters what you do as you cannot control what someone else does.

Jim

 

[ev780]

Might be fair to say that a person can compete on a budget, you don’t need the latest and greatest equipment, just decent equipment and learn how to use it.
As an overview ;
You put in your work and shoot against yourself each time even though there are others on your relay, it only matters what you do as you cannot control what someone else does.

Jim

100%

Then why drive across town, state, county to shoot and pay a match fee, organization fee, gas, food, etc? Comradery? Fair, but will only grow the sport so much.

 

[JFrank]

Then why drive across town, state, county to shoot and pay a match fee,

The food is better than I cook at home.

 

[tom]

@tom if you are happy where you are and have no desire to do anything else or do it differently then why would you first consider any other organization. I am happy doing what I am doing and, after staying in both IBS and Freedom I made a decision to not be part of IBS any longer. I don't miss it but that is just me. I do know some who still shoot under both flags. Why would I change?
I really don't want your "Facts" as to why I and a vast majority of long range shooters are "wrong" in our choice.
As @9146gt states, it is about shooting!

Fair enough Jerry. I hope your health allows you back out there shooting a full schedule and enjoying the matches soon.

Tom

 

[Evan]

Just one guy's opinion on the portion of the conversation about dwindling numbers and why I passed on competing despite really wanting to shoot competitively.


I have been active in IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge over the years. I got a little long in the tooth for running and gunning so I started in the rifle world. PRS and NRL22 didn't fit for the same reasons.

The benchrest and F-class game sounded like just the ticket. Crawled the internet and talked (tried anyway) to guys at some of the ranges I frequent. I found most of them standoffish and secretive. I had one guy who wouldn't shake my hand or give his name when I introduced myself. Total tool.

That crap happens. Undeterred, I joined discussion boards, watched videos, all the usual internet stuff to learn more. Quickly learned there was no handicapping or stratification of competitors. Line up on the bench and shoot. I could just envision finding myself in mid-pack all the damn time and not really knowing if I'm progressing. I've been playing golf long enough to know how frustrating it is to not win. I don't expect to win every time but languishing just out of the money forever is it's own kind of hell!

I read about having a great barrel that they take off to save for competition and practice with another one. Easy to do when Frank Green sends a box of barrels via UPS. Not so easy when you gotta spend a grand each. Or a bunch of tools and then it's only $500 per. That's just barrels! The equipment race is insanely expensive!

I read about the need for different rifle system for every different type of competition. F-class ...7-6.5. Bench group... 6PPC. Bench score.... .30 BR. PRS...... 6 Dasher. Then they change the rules and we start all over again. I know you can cross pollinate some of those, but the internet doesn't make it feel that way. The cost gets staggering quickly. I mentioned golf earlier and although I'm far from poor, having two hobbies where I spend a ton of money to be average sucks.

Then there is the scoring margin issue. I know there is a lot of internet hyperbole but there just seems to be nowhere to fit in. Groups are too small and scores are too high. As an example I looked up scores from a recent benchrest for score competition. My eye was drawn to one poor bastard who shot a 9 in his second bull of the event. Clean otherwise but finished mid pack! No thanks.

I read about needing to have a $3,000 front rest that I have to wait a year for from Asia, custom made stock from the Banyon tree in Maui, $3 a piece brass and custom bullets dipped in unicorn pee or I could forget about winning.

All in all I got discouraged with the whole scene and just decided stay home and compete against myself with whatever I have. And from what I understand, no pit duty.

Potential solutions since I was taught not to just bitch but bring solutions.

1. Handicapping system so we can progress through the sport and see our progress.
2. Firearm classifications other than weight. For example limit the rests. Simple fixed width bipod and a rear bag. Factory ammo only. Factory barrels only. There's got to be others. Bring the shooter back to the game. Pandora lives here I know that but it can be done.
3. The places where we can shoot targets at 1000 yards or even 600 can be challenging. Long Range steel is easy to find but targets not so much. Gotta find a way to make sub 600 competitive, inviting and fun.
4. The records are over. .007 group size? That's not a group its a hole. And totally subjective. Forget about it. Lets move on.

Just curious what a handicap would look like? How does that even work on a nuts and bolts level for this kind of activity? I’m not trying to be confrontational here; I honestly don’t even understand how it really works in golf either.

 

[tom]

The food is better than I cook at home.

You ain't kidding there!

 

[jackieschmidt]

Just one guy's opinion on the portion of the conversation about dwindling numbers and why I passed on competing despite really wanting to shoot competitively.


I have been active in IDPA, USPSA, and Steel Challenge over the years. I got a little long in the tooth for running and gunning so I started in the rifle world. PRS and NRL22 didn't fit for the same reasons.

The benchrest and F-class game sounded like just the ticket. Crawled the internet and talked (tried anyway) to guys at some of the ranges I frequent. I found most of them standoffish and secretive. I had one guy who wouldn't shake my hand or give his name when I introduced myself. Total tool.

That crap happens. Undeterred, I joined discussion boards, watched videos, all the usual internet stuff to learn more. Quickly learned there was no handicapping or stratification of competitors. Line up on the bench and shoot. I could just envision finding myself in mid-pack all the damn time and not really knowing if I'm progressing. I've been playing golf long enough to know how frustrating it is to not win. I don't expect to win every time but languishing just out of the money forever is it's own kind of hell!

I read about having a great barrel that they take off to save for competition and practice with another one. Easy to do when Frank Green sends a box of barrels via UPS. Not so easy when you gotta spend a grand each. Or a bunch of tools and then it's only $500 per. That's just barrels! The equipment race is insanely expensive!

I read about the need for different rifle system for every different type of competition. F-class ...7-6.5. Bench group... 6PPC. Bench score.... .30 BR. PRS...... 6 Dasher. Then they change the rules and we start all over again. I know you can cross pollinate some of those, but the internet doesn't make it feel that way. The cost gets staggering quickly. I mentioned golf earlier and although I'm far from poor, having two hobbies where I spend a ton of money to be average sucks.

Then there is the scoring margin issue. I know there is a lot of internet hyperbole but there just seems to be nowhere to fit in. Groups are too small and scores are too high. As an example I looked up scores from a recent benchrest for score competition. My eye was drawn to one poor bastard who shot a 9 in his second bull of the event. Clean otherwise but finished mid pack! No thanks.

I read about needing to have a $3,000 front rest that I have to wait a year for from Asia, custom made stock from the Banyon tree in Maui, $3 a piece brass and custom bullets dipped in unicorn pee or I could forget about winning.

All in all I got discouraged with the whole scene and just decided stay home and compete against myself with whatever I have. And from what I understand, no pit duty.

Potential solutions since I was taught not to just bitch but bring solutions.

1. Handicapping system so we can progress through the sport and see our progress.
2. Firearm classifications other than weight. For example limit the rests. Simple fixed width bipod and a rear bag. Factory ammo only. Factory barrels only. There's got to be others. Bring the shooter back to the game. Pandora lives here I know that but it can be done.
3. The places where we can shoot targets at 1000 yards or even 600 can be challenging. Long Range steel is easy to find but targets not so much. Gotta find a way to make sub 600 competitive, inviting and fun.
4. The records are over. .007 group size? That's not a group its a hole. And totally subjective. Forget about it. Lets move on.

I will address two of your concerns,

Equipment. Take a look at my Bench Set Up. I know it goes against the norm. I win my share.

Itty bitty records. They have absolutely nothing to do with the next time any shooter sits down at the Bench for the next Match.

 

[bichettereds]

I will address two of your concerns,

Equipment. Take a look at my Bench Set Up. I know it gos against the norm. I win my share.

Itty bitty records. They have absolutely nothing to do with the next time any shooter sits down at the Bench for the next Match.

Two of the best shooters in my region (and in the world) are using a Hart rest and squeezing the rear bag.

You don’t need a $3000 joystick rest or a $1500 powder dispenser or a $600 priming tool.

I’m a 2 barrel a year guy. That’s just my reality but I don’t feel it’s held me back.

We love gadgets and gear but this isn’t the equipment race outsiders think it is. At least not with what’s most important.

Good bullets are important. The nice thing about that is, good “custom” hand swaged bullets are cheaper than off the shelf Berger bullets last time I checked.