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Wanting headspace opinions

TxBowHunter409

Gold $$ Contributor
To give a back story. The gun is a Bergara B-14 6.5 Creedmoor. I ran several boxes of ammo through the gun to break in the barrel, get some fired brass to check headspace, and just to see overall how it shot with different factory ammo. I then loaded up a ladder test using some of the once fired Hornady brass just in testing. Found a couple of charge weights I wanted to explore more, so I loaded up some additional rounds using the same, now twice fired Hornady brass to test these charge weights. Shoulder measurements were pretty consistent on the once fired Hornady brass, as well as some of the other brass I tested including Sig and Federal with the majority falling in at 1.4850. There were a few that 1.4855 and even a 1.4860.

With that being said, I close to bump my brass to 1.4835. I figured if the headspace was actually 1.4850, it would give still give 0.0015's clearance. And in the chance that most of the brass just didn't have enough pressure to fully fire form with the exception of a small handful. And that the 1.4860 was closer to the actual headspace. It would still only put me out like 0.0025. All was fine and dandy through the next couple of loadings on the Hornady brass I had picked to use for testing because I had more of it.

Where the questions appear was when I decided to test VV N555 in the gun. I had always planned on using my normal Lapua brass anyways, so I figured I'd go ahead and get new Lapua brass to test this powder. Loaded up a ladder test on it in 0.3 increments like I normally do from maybe a half grain over the books starting charge to 0.6 over the maximum charge weight so I could get an idea of where pressure was starting. Yes I know new Lapua brass can camouflage pressure signs pretty good, so yes I was checking everything closely. Brass looked good on the two max loads. No ejector marks, primers looked good, no heavy bolt lift, etc. All good.

Found a charge that looked promising, so I was going to load up a couple dozen at this charge weight to do more testing. Specifically at 300 and 500 yards. But before I loaded these I decided to check the shoulders on the once fired Lapua brass. The first one I tested came in at 1.4875. So I started testing all the Lapua brass that I had shot and ended up with a variety of results. The vast majority came in at 1.4860, but there were several as you can see in the photo that came in at 1.4865 all the way thru 1.4875.

I know this is long, so bear with me. My question is, do you think the 1.4875 is likely closer to my actual headspace? Like these are likely those rounds that were at max load or above? It's obvious I need to adjust my initial headspace I was using, but how far? I'm thinking that if the 1.4875 is the actual headspace, then make a dummy round at 1.4855 and verify that it chambers well. What are y'all's thoughts?

And y'all don't beat me up too bad in the comments. I normally use the cheap brass to get my headspace on other guns because it seemed to just expand easier than Lapua after a firing. This is the first time that I've had once fired Lapua actually stretch more than the cheap stuff. And sorry for the long post.
 

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My dims for my 6.5CM cases with 18 firings run:
Hornady D400 insert is 1.5340”.
Hornady C375 insert is 1.5569.

What headspace comparator are you using?
Your numbers seem short.
 
The above response is correct. Do at least 2x fired, maybe even 3 before worrying about the actual measurement.
Maybe so. Maybe I'm just making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm just gonna run them through the sizing die so I can at least set my neck tension, and see what they do. Just never really had an issue before using Lapua brass and getting them sized right. My case prep game is usually spot on.
 
I would size them, but short stroke the press to stretch the shoulder a bit longer until I get one which won't chamber easily in the rifle. Then work with that case to start bumping the shoulder back a thou at a time until it just chambers easily.
Then decide how much further the shoulder needs to go back for reliable operation. My number is generally 2 or 3 thou shorter than the "just chambers easily" dimension.
In my experience, Lapua brass is fairly tough, and doesn't fireform as quickly as other brands unless the load is quite hot. That may take 4 or 5 firings.

I've used this method for several years with good success.
 
Looking at SAAMI specs, your 1.4860” lines up with the area of the end of the case body and the beginning of the case shoulder.

I place my comparator somewhere close to mid shoulder using Hornady’s C 0.375 insert. That’s why you and I have such a large difference headspace measurements.

You are Golden! Any more powder in that load will probably start in to the over pressure range.

What’s your muzzle velocity? My 6.5 runs about 2875 FPS on the average.

Keep loading one particular lot of brass multiple times and you’ll find a consistent headspace number.

And to answer your question, could be but it depends on the brass your using, powder charge, brass elasticity, environments, and a myriad of other factors.

Hornady brass versus Lapua is like night and day.
 
You need to understand that because the case will spring back when it expands to fill the chamber it is going to always test smaller (shorter) than the chamber. Only when the chamber expands beyond a certain point will the case actually match the chamber. That becomes the point of hard bolt lift.

As others have noted here several firings will expand/extend the case to the point where it reaches its maximum size for a given load.

Probably the best estimate of your maximum datum dimension is by takeing a piece of fired brass and put successive pieces of tape on the head and measure each time until the stripped bolt won't close. Same technique used with go gauge and determining headspace dimension.
 
I get more consistent numbers when the comparator makes contact with the middle of the shoulder on the case. I backup the comparator numbers with a few cases using proud seated spent primers to actually measure the bolt/case head clearance.
 
On a shorter fired case you could do the trick with setting a old fired primer long in the primer pocket and then close the bolt with it in your chamber, then eject it andmeasure it against the proud fired primer.
 
On a shorter fired case you could do the trick with setting a old fired primer long in the primer pocket and then close the bolt with it in your chamber, then eject it andmeasure it against the proud fired primer.

I was actually going to ask if he is depriming before taking his measurements. Sometimes primers will sit a little proud after firing and that can influence your actual measurements.
 
Looking at SAAMI specs, your 1.4860” lines up with the area of the end of the case body and the beginning of the case shoulder.

I place my comparator somewhere close to mid shoulder using Hornady’s C 0.375 insert. That’s why you and I have such a large difference headspace measurements.

You are Golden! Any more powder in that load will probably start in to the over pressure range.

What’s your muzzle velocity? My 6.5 runs about 2875 FPS on the average.

Keep loading one particular lot of brass multiple times and you’ll find a consistent headspace number.

And to answer your question, could be but it depends on the brass your using, powder charge, brass elasticity, environments, and a myriad of other factors.

Hornady brass versus Lapua is like night and day.
I had swapped over to the Short Action Customs comparator set from a recommendation from Eric Cortina. That definitely was an adjustment period for me because of not only the huge differences in measurements between the SAC comparators and my Hornady comparators, but also just getting used to the way the SAC comparators index the shoulder. Totally different. The SAC comparators index the shoulder almost more like a shoulder collet where it indexes the entire shoulder, as opposed to a set spot on the shoulder like my Hornady comparators do.

As far as muzzle velocity goes, it sucks. When using H4350 I was low 2,700's, but this Triple Nickel it's more like mid 2,500's. Even at Max charge it was only mid 2,600's shooting the 143 grain ELD-X bullets. Could never get the 140 Bergers to shoot right out of the gun. The low muzzle velocity bugged the hell out of me at first, but then I rationalized it. This will be a wife's hunting gun, the average shot will be likely 200 to 300 yards, and the recoil is next to nothing. And it shoots pretty good.
 

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I only start with virgin cases and dedicate them to a specific rifle. I rotate their use so all cases receive an equal workload.

As others have said, one needs to allow the cases to form to the chamber before bumping the shoulder. Here's what I have been doing for many years:

I measure a sample of cases after the first firing with a bump gauge and caliper. I set my F/L size for a zero bump. Using Skip Shims, it is very easy to make precise adjustments to the F/L die. The reason I use an F/L die is that it also sizes the radial dimension of the case, which is often the main culprit in resistant chambering, at least in my experience. I spot check the sized cases in the rifle for optimum chambering (firing pin assembly removed).

What I discovered over the years is that I can often go several firings and sizing before I need to bump the shoulder. I always measure a sample of fired and sized cases each sizing operation to verify that I am within the limits of optimum case head space.

This process has worked well for me producing minimal sizing and optimum case head space resulting in problem free chambering. Using Skip Shims, it is quite simple to make sizing adjustments, when necessary, without having to change the lock ring on the die, the latter a cumbersome process for sure.
 

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