Learning at the Whidden Gunworks Test Range

[buckeye68]

So if you clean after every round, you barrel would be the same, but not optimized for accuracy. You would have to then shot five additional rounds to optimize your barrel.

That’s what I do. First one is always high right then the next 4 are in the same hole.

I need to check the FPS during my next range session to see what is going, from a clean barrel to finishing a card just like in a match.

 

[Thauglor]

How long does his accuracy last once he shot the 50 to get it shooting good?

At least 5, my Shilen needs 10-15. The top shooter in my circle of long range 22 shooters has a Rimex with a long Douglas barrel that will not stabilize (velocity/ES/SD) until he’s fired at least 50 rounds. His first round out is supersonic then the next is way low like 1030fps and it slowly speeds up as he shoots. My gun does the same, only the round count to my expected average velocity is way lower. His is the only gun I’ve ever seen so slow to stabilize after cleaning.

 

[davidjoe]

Apologies if this was covered. I didn’t read everything.

I shoot mainly ABRA, 50 yards, 20 targets a sheet/match, score/bullseye. There’s really two ways that Tenex could lag behind Midas, but one of the two ways is less important for this type of game.

In John’s results, Tenex could be throwing a flyer or two that enlarges and defines the group size. Or, possibly, John means the Tenex patterns are simply more diffuse; a true higher mean radius.

The “10” dot is smaller than the bullet’s hole. A flyer here or there, if 10’s and X’s are what 9/10’s of the bullets shoot, could still be preferable to a slightly higher number of bullets “just” missing the 10, that technically are shooting a “smaller” group.

In this game, the 9 ring is rather generous. In other words “just” missing the 10 is frustrating and nowhere near as bad a shot as a liner 9 that’s nearly an 8, is allowed to be.

I’d rather have a sloppy 9 or even an 8, if it was rare, than many on the page that are nail biters where a few end up 9’s despite no “real” flyers.

It’s hard to banish the wondering of how’s that going to score, when it keeps happening during the string.

FWIW I really like Midas as well, but not only is it expensive, it’s really difficult to find. This means that it’s on a very wobbly pedestal in my mind if/when anything comes close.

If Tenex lags at 50 but surpasses it at 100 in the tunnel, then one possibility is that the Midas bullets are extremely uniform (more so) but the the muzzle velocity is less so, as .22 is increasingly sensitive to MV variance as range increases.

 

[PhilD]

How long does his accuracy last once he shot the 50 to get it shooting good?

I don’t recall how often he cleans but our long range matches are 90 rounds. You can’t clean during a match. Once the match starts all rounds fired are for score. The only free time to shoot foulers is prior to the match which starts at 9am. I clean the night before and arrive NLT 7am to season the bore and confirm my DOPE at the different ranges.

 

[Thauglor]

I don’t recall how often he cleans but our long range matches are 90 rounds. You can’t clean during a match. Once the match starts all rounds fired are for score. The only free time to shoot foulers is prior to the match which starts at 9am. I clean the night before and arrive NLT 7am to season the bore and confirm my DOPE at the different ranges.

Thank you!

 

[Steelnecktie]

I’d like to know, if you tested 10 lots of ammo and had them numbered in order from best to worst. Come back tomorrow and retest through same gun and same lot numbers if the better group lots would stay towards the top or whole thing could flip flop.

 

[grauhanen]

I’d like to know, if you tested 10 lots of ammo and had them numbered in order from best to worst. Come back tomorrow and retest through same gun and same lot numbers if the better group lots would stay towards the top or whole thing could flip flop.

The assumption is often that each lot of ammo will always shoot consistently from one box to the next, with every box producing very similar results.

What happens when the lots themselves are not uniformly consistent from brick-to-brick, box-to-box? The consequence would be that results could be somewhat different between shooting sessions.

 

[PhilD]

For a couple years now myself and a couple friends will go in together and buy 4 boxes of 6 or 7 different lots of Eley 10x. We’ll test then order what shoots best. I’ll shoot a minimum of 30 rounds of each lot to try and get a good feel for the ES and SD and I write it all down. We all shoot different rifles, I have a desert precision custom and a Vudoo w/Shilen Ratchet, and the other guys have CZs, Bergara w/ mullerworks, and a Rimx. Not only do the best lots stay the best day after day. Typically we all like the same lot, probably 8 out of 10 times. We all have different average velocity, even slightly different ES/Sd…but the lot with the best numbers shows up in all our guns with the best groups at long range. Be it team, match, or 10x is the ES/SD is good I can tune my PQP Tuner for small groups. Same goes for Lapua Long Range and Super Long Range.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I’d like to know, if you tested 10 lots of ammo and had them numbered in order from best to worst. Come back tomorrow and retest through same gun and same lot numbers if the better group lots would stay towards the top or whole thing could flip flop.

If we are talking about a testing center scenario it may not duplicate exactly the same size groups, but it should fall in the same order from best to worst.
The notion that box to box consistency is just not available, in reality speaking of Lapua only that is just not true. if anything, it may be the barrel or if using a tuner, the tune that will cause those inconsistent results.

Lee

 

[CharlieNC]

I’d like to know, if you tested 10 lots of ammo and had them numbered in order from best to worst. Come back tomorrow and retest through same gun and same lot numbers if the better group lots would stay towards the top or whole thing could flip flop.

There will be many lots that are not different, so force ranking them is fruitless. Identifying one lot that stands out is a win and should replicate upon retesting.

 

[foxguy]

In small markets the ammo choice is more limited than in a large market.

In Canada, for example, in the fall of last year the first 2024-produced Midas arrived, a total of five lots. Prior to that there were a total of six lots of previously unavailable 2023-made Midas. In total, eleven lots of M+ over the course of a year.

At 100 yards all performed similarly over several rifles. None was poor, none especially good.

Grauhanen,

Shooters, Competitors in the US are purchasing 8-10 lots of ammo at a time for testing, if they don't find a consistent lot of Ammo, they will wait until the next shipment comes in and reorder and test again. If they do find a good, consistent lot of ammo they will purchase a couple or more cases. Serious Competitors are not purchasing average lots of ammo to compete with. With good consistent lots of ammo, and practice using flags shooters can become very consistent and competitive.

 

[grauhanen]

Shooters, Competitors in the US are purchasing 8-10 lots of ammo at a time for testing, if they don't find a consistent lot of Ammo, they will wait until the next shipment comes in and reorder and test again. If they do find a good, consistent lot of ammo they will purchase a couple or more cases. Serious Competitors are not purchasing average lots of ammo to compete with. With good consistent lots of ammo, and practice using flags shooters can become very consistent and competitive.

Thanks for the summary. This is the way it is everywhere, with the caveat that shooters buying ammo to test can only get as many lots as are available to them.

No one wants to get average ammo with which to compete. Everyone wants to get above average lots. The problem is obvious that not all lots can be above average. The result is that some shooters, perhaps a majority, must shoot with the best ammo they can find, even if it's not the most consistent ammo that is available to others.

As you note, when shooters don't find a consistent lot they must wait until the next shipment. When the next shipment is not available in the near future, which is likely in many locations they must shoot with what is available or don't shoot at all.

 

[xpilot]

Thanks for the summary. This is the way it is everywhere, with the caveat that shooters buying ammo to test can only get as many lots as are available to them.

No one wants to get average ammo with which to compete. Everyone wants to get above average lots. The problem is obvious that not all lots can be above average. The result is that some shooters, perhaps a majority, must shoot with the best ammo they can find, even if it's not the most consistent ammo that is available to others.

As you note, when shooters don't find a consistent lot they must wait until the next shipment. When the next shipment is not available in the near future, which is likely in many locations they must shoot with what is available or don't shoot at all.

Hard to argue with the obvious

 

[foxguy]

Thanks for the summary. This is the way it is everywhere, with the caveat that shooters buying ammo to test can only get as many lots as are available to them.

No one wants to get average ammo with which to compete. Everyone wants to get above average lots. The problem is obvious that not all lots can be above average. The result is that some shooters, perhaps a majority, must shoot with the best ammo they can find, even if it's not the most consistent ammo that is available to others.

As you note, when shooters don't find a consistent lot they must wait until the next shipment. When the next shipment is not available in the near future, which is likely in many locations they must shoot with what is available or don't shoot at all.

So, I am curious. when you speak of an average lot of ammo, what would the group size be of the average lot of ammo @ 50 yards or meters?? What are you considering to be a very good lot of ammo, Group size @ 50 Yards or meters?

I have read that one lot of Ammo that doesn't shoot so well out of one rifle barrel may be a really good lot in another rifle barrel.

When, if you chronograph the average lot vs the very good lot of ammo, are you seeing a large extreme spread in the average lot and a small extreme spread in the very good lot of ammo?

I have read that extreme spread of velocity doesn't come into play in shooting really good targets, when shooting at 50 Yards/Meters. The competition that I shoot in is 100 yards and it looks like extreme spread is a factor.

 

[davidjoe]

So, I am curious. when you speak of an average lot of ammo, what would the group size be of the average lot of ammo @ 50 yards or meters?? What are you considering to be a very good lot of ammo, Group size @ 50 Yards or meters?

I have read that one lot of Ammo that doesn't shoot so well out of one rifle barrel may be a really good lot in another rifle barrel.

When, if you chronograph the average lot vs the very good lot of ammo, are you seeing a large extreme spread in the average lot and a small extreme spread in the very good lot of ammo?

I have read that extreme spread of velocity doesn't come into play in shooting really good targets, when shooting at 50 Yards/Meters. The competition that I shoot in is 100 yards and it looks like extreme spread is a factor.

For the ABRA target, the red dot 10 is .127 inch. Since we are shooting .22’s, we would in theory be able to touch that ring with a center .11 inches away from it.

By this reckoning, we double that cushion to .22 inches because it applies equally to opposite “sides” of the 10 dot, and then we add the dot’s diameter to .22. (This doubling does not apply to the “hostage” .22 target page, the tricky feature of it.)

.347 of an inch at 50 yards gets you a 10. Punching out the .127 counts as an X, and there again is some cushion because the bullet hole is bigger than the 10.

That’s maximum group size (minimum precision requirements) to theoretically be able to clean the target, .347. “Group size” is a very misleading term though.

These targets require you to break position every single shot. One bull, one shot. That’s really the rub. You’ll sometimes notice, always seeking to minimize, the feeling or hearing of binding and creep in the rest or bipod as the shot breaks.

So group size is only part of the equation. Nevertheless it’s important. .347 inch “cold bore” is equally applicable, because that’s how different new targets every shot are from group shooting.

I think when guys say average shooting, they mainly mean “relative” to the spectrum of what their particular rifle in question shoots. You need better than a .25 inch gun at 50 yards in the calm to not fall below the pack in average.

I’m not a big subscriber to some guns liking lots that most other guns do not shoot well. To me, there are some commercial realities at play. All the ammo made needs to eventually find a home. I think this is safe to say.

Rather than some guns liking ammo that doesn’t often test as well, I think it’s probably more likely true that those guns simply aren’t good enough in comparison, that the difference is very noticeable between the best ammo and mediocre ammo.

We tend to implicitly accept this premise in other areas, for example everyone with great .22’s also has a battery of more casual .22’s, and we do not waste premium ammo in them because we know they can’t maximize it. If they could maximize its potential, then there would be no need to go to extremes with the highest level gear.

I totally agree that if you get close enough to the target, extreme velocity spread can be made immaterial. 50 yards is enough that it does matter though. There are PRS style matches at 30-35 yards where velocity spread is getting pretty academic. And we know that it simply doesn’t matter at all in steel plates at single digit distances.

 

[TRSR8]

Thanks for the summary. This is the way it is everywhere, with the caveat that shooters buying ammo to test can only get as many lots as are available to them.

No one wants to get average ammo with which to compete. Everyone wants to get above average lots. The problem is obvious that not all lots can be above average. The result is that some shooters, perhaps a majority, must shoot with the best ammo they can find, even if it's not the most consistent ammo that is available to others.

As you note, when shooters don't find a consistent lot they must wait until the next shipment. When the next shipment is not available in the near future, which is likely in many locations they must shoot with what is available or don't shoot at all.

If you’re shooting Lapua, lot testing is available pretty much only at test centers and then….one case is what you can buy.
As far as “ next shipment “ that is fantasy given test appointments are many months out.
Don’t care what you’re level is, most are buying blind.
Testing is available for ELEY but great lots are rare.
No fun in ammo land these days.

 

[whiddengunworks]

Lot testing of Lapua is available at our test range.

We have 10 lots in stock right this minute, and the next available appointment is just 3 days away.

When you find what you want, there is no limit and you can buy all that we have.

 

[Blue-Mule]

Lot testing of Lapua is available at our test range.

We have 10 lots in stock right this minute, and the next available appointment is just 3 days away.

When you find what you want, there is no limit and you can buy all that we have.

Question for you regarding Tenex.

Have you tested with the pistol offerings in rifles and do you see it as essentially equal to the flat nose rounds?

 

[Olspark]

Lot testing of Lapua is available at our test range.

We have 10 lots in stock right this minute, and the next available appointment is just 3 days away.

When you find what you want, there is no limit and you can buy all that we have.

When I look at your website, it indicates out of stock for Lapua ammo. Do I assume the 10 lots are only available to those also using the testing service?

 

[whiddengunworks]

Blue-Mule, we've done a limited amount of testing pistol Tenex in rifles. It generally didn't shoot as tight as rifle Tenex EPS.

Olspark, yes we have Lapua set aside just for our test range. The amount currently available is listed on our Ammunition Testing page in the yellow box about half way down.