To put it as simple as I can, yes Sir tuners work very well. It does not eliminate you doing load work up. Mike Ezell tuners are the ones I use and he is a wealth of information.
Consensus on tuners?
- Thread starter Gil P.
- Start date
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
Tuners absolutely work. Do you have to have one to competitive, not necessarily but like many other things we do or buy they sure do make life easier! At any bigger multi day match with a practice session I always end up moving the tuner a little to make the rifle it's best and that has paid off nicely.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
I was using tuners before most. Your starting off on the wrong foot.
This is true.
drop_point
Silver $$ Contributor
Exactly how do tuners work? Not what they physically do, but how do I know how to use one if I work up a load, my gun is hammering and I go to a match and find my gun is out of tune. How do I know what to do?
I understand. Im clueless when it comes to tuners, I'm just trying to get a better understanding.
This might be another stupid question but, do tuners turn around the barrel perfectly, or are they made to turn with runout?
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
You put them on as straight as you can. If it's a new barrel the easiest time to do it is when your set up to do the crown.
It’s not a problem at all for PRS. You set it before the match.
You need to speak with Mike Ezell, he is a wealth of information on tuners!! He will be able to answer any questions you have.
This is the main reason I haven't tried one. If I'm getting groups in the low .2s without a tuner do I really need one for PRS?
Its like you said though.ill never know until I try one. I was hoping it would simplify load work up when it comes to seating depth, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Nope not really. If you are loading and getting .2s and it stays together farther out then no need really. That’s more than accurate enough for the PRS game. I have mine on so when I use factory ammo I can tune it. I just load with it set where it’s at and find a load that works.
And you really shouldn’t have to mess with seating depth once you learn the bullet. You know how far off the lands your bullet likes so you just set it there. I usually set mine at about .020-.040” off the lands depending on bullet and go. Never touch it again for the life of the barrel. If you run a seating depth sensitive bullet then you may need to mess with it some.
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
The whole point of tuners is to keep it shooting that well everywhere you go. I shoot F Open and have some very good shooting rifles but they don't do it everywhere I go or even every time at the same range because of weather conditions. The tuner helps a lot with that!
You could use it to speed up the tuning process but it's unlikely that you'll end up with it shooting anywhere near as well as doing a full work up and then final super fine tuning with the tuner.
This takes time using the tuner to learn. No one can tell you exactly how much and/or which way to turn the tuner on a given day and condition. However, some well known shooters say if the groups are vertical turn the tuner in towards the shooter and out if the groups are horizontal. Another theory taught be a huge number of shooters say if temps go up from your last tune turn the tuner in towards the shooter and if temps go down from your last tune turn the tuner outward away from the shooter. BUT, there are factors within the atmospheric parameters in which changes the affect of the tune other than temps. Density altitude is a combination of numbers of those parameters that lots of shooters actually use.
JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
It's taken me years to learn my tuner... Add I'm still not sure. But i will change it some. I haven't a clue on what to do with the tuner i got from long.
In sunday's match i just thought my poi was squirrely with the flags & tails doing the same things. I tweaked it, Ezell,in a hair and i mean a hair - and things got right. I heard warmer= in. ???
As far as seating. I have always gone touch, (tuner all the way in) then powder test for best load.
So i guess I'm tuning the gun with powder load then improving on that tune with tuner.
I go to the closest 0 (ocd chit !) and work from there -- this much at a time one way then the other. I found it quickly. 100yrd target.
I don't chase the lands until the barrel starts goung then I'll find touch again and start seating there & see if the barrel has some life left.
Bat action. Bartlien barrel.30br, 6ppc BR stock, Sidhe trigger.
In sunday's match i just thought my poi was squirrely with the flags & tails doing the same things. I tweaked it, Ezell,in a hair and i mean a hair - and things got right. I heard warmer= in. ???
As far as seating. I have always gone touch, (tuner all the way in) then powder test for best load.
So i guess I'm tuning the gun with powder load then improving on that tune with tuner.
I go to the closest 0 (ocd chit !) and work from there -- this much at a time one way then the other. I found it quickly. 100yrd target.
I don't chase the lands until the barrel starts goung then I'll find touch again and start seating there & see if the barrel has some life left.
Bat action. Bartlien barrel.30br, 6ppc BR stock, Sidhe trigger.
A simple test like the one I posted on page 1 shows you which way to go and how far. It's not quite textbook, but pretty close. I think he said the wind was blowing 20mph on the bottom target. That makes it hard but not impossible to read the target.
It's frustrating reading that, as much time as I've spent on this subject on here. Bottom line, I designed a test that works with MY tuner and its mark graduations. Those were not coincidental, btw. The first tuners I ever tested had vastly different instructions. You could see them do something but the magic began to happen when I established mark values relative to group shapes on target. I don't care what tuner you use, if ya don't know what to expect from any incremental change of the tuner...ya got a tough road ahead. Establishing those specific group shapes, intervals and POI's on the target simply has to be where you start. Absolutely no different than changing loads or seating depths to keep up with tune.
How much do you change powder or seating depth at a time when tuning and why? Same questions for tuners? The important part to know is the WHY! No offense intended but, if ya can't answer the WHY, do you agree that one is simply guessing...or at best, moving and hoping?
I disagree because there is a method to the madness. But just like tuning by any other means, most of us have learned to move in small increments of seating or powder charge and we have certain things we look for when we are close to tune. Tuners are no different.
Tune repeats, tuner or not. We've all heard and seen "the next higher powder node" and we mostly all know what is meant when one says that. Tuners are the same. The sine test shows you how far apart those "nodes" are...powder, seating and tuners..
It was well summed up earlier in this thread when it was said that tuners affect bullet exit timing. His comment was general though and left out muzzle position, which is what we are timing bullet exit to. Powder and seating mostly affect exit time and tuners allow us to manipulate muzzle position by changing phase time. When you get those two things together, it'll put a smile on your face.
Testing is how I feel very confident in everything I've said here. In practice, in national championship wins and in vibration analysis testing. Anyone can believe whatever they choose to though.
@Shooter13 How many times, tuners and bbls have you done this on now and how far between sweet spots did I say you'd see, even before you did the test with the very first tuner you bought from me? Am I lying or making any of this up? Be honest, please. You know the answer and everyone else should see it on the targets I posted on page 1 here. 8-10 marks is the answer. SR bbls are typically closer to 8 and LR bbls are typically closer to 10. Now look at the targets. It dotted up on BOTH targets 1,9 7 and 15. Hmmm. It's not guessing guys. It's knowing your product. That's part of the service I offer for mine but since different makes and models will respond differently, I can't offer that same level of service for all makes. But, if you take the time to be very methodical in your testing, you can do it yourself, with anything mounted and moveable at the muzzle. That's step number 1 and I don't tell people that it's a secret, how to use them. It's not a secret and they aren't magic either. But they are a tool that I can't imagine being without, at this time either.
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Shooter13
Gold $$ Contributor
WOW! I don't understand people, I'm starting to understand tuners (Ezells anyway) I've used them since I started in 2019, I think I have 6 or so now, sold some to get the lighter or heaver one, as anyone can see on the targets I sent you even with a 20 plus mph wind the impact points were almost exact, same gun just different conditions, I love the repeatability of them.
If you are looking at the targets Mike posted you can see how they repeat, I'm not sure what some don't understand about this. Can I do it again? Absolutely. Don't believe me? Buy one and try it for yourself.
It's much easier done, than said...apparently. At least in type on here. I've gone over the process by phone literally a few thousand times and the results are virtually always the same. I understand people not wanting to reply to many of these threads but there are many, many people that read these forums that have seen what I've been trying to convey on here for about 11 years now.
So apparently, a phone conversation is the way to go vs forum shit shows. Lol! I don't know a better way to put it but that's why I've always done orders by phone. That's where the rubber meets the road and the small details are best explained. If you can keep a rifle tuned without a tuner, you can do it. If I can keep a rifle tuned with a tuner, you can too. It's just not that hard at all.
Peace!
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
You turn it a lot do you?
tvaught
Gold $$ Contributor
If I've done all my homework properly on tuning, using primer, neck tension, seating depth, powder, not so much.
If I've found on Match 1 Day 1 of a multiday tournament that I've taken time off from work, traveled, etc and I've loaded 500 rounds of precisely the wrong thing, it gives me an option to try salvage something and make the first page.
But you won't be able to cover the wind readers that have properly tuned rifles/ammo.
That's just my current experience and perspective, it'll likely change (it has from my past practices) as I try to be always willing and ready to learn.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Agreed.
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