Still debating, 223 vs 22ARC

[SKWERLZ]

Little secret. Wilsons are fast. That 7 twist 224 barrel is just a killer.

I have a Wilson barrel I bought from you.
Made a 6bra barrel for an older gentleman to murder coyotes.
He’s possibly deadlier than fauci.

 

[urbanrifleman]

He’s possibly deadlier than fauci.

Impossible.

 

[KMW 1954]

Actually, I've read all 70 posts because it's an interesting topic.

I was wondering what the discussion was about with the next 29 posts.
No worries if I misinterpreted.

jelenko, not a problem, I believe you have followed from the beginning.

The "Next 29 post". Don't care I won't be following as this thread has been so entirely derailed from the original question. I believe I stated pretty clearly in my first post what the intention was for this rifle and since then it has been turned into anything and everything but a bench target rifle.

 

[Gabe22BR]

I’ll be glad when you make your mind up… LOL

The little PPC case has won more matches than anything- 20ppc, 22ppc, 6ppc, 30ppc, & variants of-
for score or single hole group matches

I don’t know where any 223 or 223AI has won anything… after the 222 & 222-1/2 it’s a no win -since the 220 Russian case came to the bench.
There is a fact-
Now I know there has been some 20VT & variants that also won some single hole group matches & score matches-
If you want to shoot some ridiculous heavy bullet go for it, myself would use a 52-57gr bullet in the 22 arc case, for the velocity over a heavier bullet-

I have a 20ppcAI in the works myself.., yeah I could use the 55gr bullets- but not my plan.. I plan on using the 40gr bibs for the velocity-

-There’s my opinion-

 

[TravisC]

So I adjusted my seating depth on my 22 Arc and shot a terrific 3 shot group at 160yds using 60 vmaxes and Benchmark today. I'm sitting right at 3200fps in 24 inch barrel

 

[ISS]

Rule #1 A: if it ain't broke, you can't fix it. You have lots of 223 brass, and dies.

What will a set of 22 ARC dies and 200 pieces of brass cost you? If I were going to step up, it would be a "Captain May I" Giant step. 22-250 or a Swift with an 8" twist and a 28" barrel...

 

[David Milisock]

Exactly my point.

I don't think there is any real debate unless someone can post some real numbers.

My guess??? Real world numbers will most likely show ZERO advantage over a regular old 223 at NATO pressures (which is pretty standard for most bolt gun loads these days). And will most likely fall short of a 223a. But I am willing to be proven wrong.

Maybe I'm stupid but just because it's new doesn't mean it's good, nor bad. The 22 and 6MM ARC cartridges in my opinion are built for versatility with various barrel lengths in the AR platform at 52,000 PSI.

In my opinion in 22 ARC the bangs not worth the buck for me. In 6MM the bang is worth the buck but only if you have equal consideration for CQB and hunting up to deer sized game out to 300 yards.

My Aero Precision 16" in 6 ARC handles very much like a 30 Carbine in very close but has considerably more reach. But compared to the 5.56 on a scale of 1 to 10 it's maybe a 3 or 3.5 in terms of overall improvement, ballistically. Which is what I wanted!

 

[searcher]

Someone please post their additional performance over a 223/223a.

Our standard pdog load is a 50 bk at 3850 fps in a 223a. We fireform with the same at 3650 fps. So, the Arc just smokes that?

Yes - the .22 Nosler, Valkyrie and .22 Arc with heavier, higher BC bullets PAST 500 yards - but within 500, that fast 50 BK is a smoker, for sure. Even in my .22 Nosler, I prefer to shoot 55 BK's over the heavier bullets I "can"
(and sometimes do) shoot, like the 62 ELD VT when the targets are under 250-350 yards or so. The faster speed provides better overall performance until out past around 500 - then the heavies take over.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Yes - the .22 Nosler, Valkyrie and .22 Arc with heavier, higher BC bullets PAST 500 yards - but within 500, that fast 50 BK is a smoker, for sure. Even in my .22 Nosler, I prefer to shoot 55 BK's over the heavier bullets I "can"
(and sometimes do) shoot, like the 62 ELD VT when the targets are under 250-350 yards or so. The faster speed provides better overall performance until out past around 500 - then the heavies take over.

Are you saying the 22 arc outperforms the 223 or 223a with heavy bullets? If so, what are the numbers?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Rule #1 A: if it ain't broke, you can't fix it. You have lots of 223 brass, and dies.

What will a set of 22 ARC dies and 200 pieces of brass cost you? If I were going to step up, it would be a "Captain May I" Giant step. 22-250 or a Swift with an 8" twist and a 28" barrel...

Or a 22bra, or 22gt. Both of which will perform right with a 22-250.

But then the 223 ackley is right there also.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Maybe I'm stupid but just because it's new doesn't mean it's good, nor bad. The 22 and 6MM ARC cartridges in my opinion are built for versatility with various barrel lengths in the AR platform at 52,000 PSI.

In my opinion in 22 ARC the bangs not worth the buck for me. In 6MM the bang is worth the buck but only if you have equal consideration for CQB and hunting up to deer sized game out to 300 yards.

My Aero Precision 16" in 6 ARC handles very much like a 30 Carbine in very close but has considerably more reach. But compared to the 5.56 on a scale of 1 to 10 it's maybe a 3 or 3.5 in terms of overall improvement, ballistically. Which is what I wanted!

No argument that the Arc was designed for heavy bullets in an AR-15. Because it's short you can run all kinds of high bc bullets from the mag.

Of course, we don't have that issue with bolt guns.

 

[William Vogel]

The problem I have with the ARC in an AR is the freebore is too long to put the great high BC bullets in the lands where they need to be at mag length. The 22 Grendel has about 0.100 less freebore and could work. I’ve got two AR’s with 24 inch barrels. One is 22ARC and one is 223AI. The AI is within 100 fps of the ARC but both must be single fed to shoot less than 1 MOA and that’s worthless. I’m getting 3450 fps from the ARC with 62eldvt with leverevolution powder and 3/4 MOA groups at 700 yards. The AI is a little more accurate at that range but the cartridge is like 2.400 COAL. The ARC is shorter but still won’t fit the mag.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The problem I have with the ARC in an AR is the freebore is too long to put the great high BC bullets in the lands where they need to be at mag length. The 22 Grendel has about 0.100 less freebore and could work. I’ve got two AR’s with 24 inch barrels. One is 22ARC and one is 223AI. The AI is within 100 fps of the ARC but both must be single fed to shoot less than 1 MOA and that’s worthless. I’m getting 3450 fps from the ARC with 62eldvt with leverevolution powder and 3/4 MOA groups at 700 yards. The AI is a little more accurate at that range but the cartridge is like 2.400 COAL. The ARC is shorter but still won’t fit the mag.

In an AR, the 223 can be loaded to higher pressure than the ARC can. Iirc, 52000 vs 62000psi. This is because the arc has more bolt thrust and that's why the gas gun data for it is so mild compared to bolt gun data. The gun(AR15) is the limiting factor. You can load the arc hotter in a bolt gun before reaching max saami pressures but the 223 is near max in either platform..bolt vs gas gun.

It's apples and oranges in a gas gun but not in a bolt rifle that can handle max rated bolt gun data for both.

 

[LVLAaron]

^ What he said.

When the 6 ARC came out I was SUPER excited because I was kicking ass in AR-Tac - Shooting 80g SMK's at 2900. I built ballistic charts for the 223 vs what you could get out of a 6arc in a gas gun, and the differences were negligible.


That said I just ordered a 223AI reamer.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm still waiting for any data from a 22 arc in a bolt gun.

^ What he said.

When the 6 ARC came out I was SUPER excited because I was kicking ass in AR-Tac - Shooting 80g SMK's at 2900. I built ballistic charts for the 223 vs what you could get out of a 6arc in a gas gun, and the differences were negligible.


That said I just ordered a 223AI reamer.

You are shooting 223 with 80 smk at 2900 fps?

 

[Evan]

I'm still waiting for any data from a 22 arc in a bolt gun.



You are shooting 223 with 80 smk at 2900 fps?

You could extrapolate from my 22 PPC loads: 2930fps with a 90 SMK. A 22 BR gets 3070fps of so. Both in 28” barrels. A 22 ARC is in the middle, capacity-wise. I haven’t heard of 223AI getting 2930 without trashing brass, but I have no direct experience with it.

 

[David Milisock]

No argument that the Arc was designed for heavy bullets in an AR-15. Because it's short you can run all kinds of high bc bullets from the mag.

Of course, we don't have that issue with bolt guns.

I agree, bolt rifles with the ARC cartridges offer significant velocity improvements over the AR pressures. Do they compete well with other cartridges, new or old, in bolt rifles in terms of velocity, trajectory, wind drift and repeatable accuracy? The answer is beyond my experiance. I didn't sell my 6MM Remington varmint rifle.

I'm from the mindset from my youth, (60 years ago) one rifle for a rifleman that does as much as possible. The AR 15 in a 16" barrel fits on a horse, truck, ATV, boat or behind the door jam and is weather capable. As I age the contents of my gun safe are slowly migrating to my children's homes.

In cartridges like the 6.8 SPC, 6MM ARC, 6.5 Grendel the AR 15 has what it takes for man or beast, in close and fast and within reasonable stalking distance of game up to 300 pounds out to 300 yards. I carried the 30 M2 Carbine, awesome in close but really only a PDW, the M4 in 5.56 was an improvement for a PDW, now a 16" AR 15 in 6MM ARC, is as good a PDW as I've ever carried and has a light 6MM hunting capability or reasonable CQB range. One rifle for and old fart to get really good with.

 

[searcher]

Are you saying the 22 arc outperforms the 223 or 223a with heavy bullets? If so, what are the numbers?

What I was saying is that the extra velocity of the 22 ARC can launch heavier bullets with high BC faster and with less drop than a .223 at extended ranges. In shorter ranges, the high speed of a lighter bullet in the same caliber can do better than a heavy bullet out to a certain point. To debate that is a moot point, I think. Just do comparisons between the two calibers with any bullet of your choice and show me where the .223 does better with the same bullet past 500 yards. These principles aren't unique to comparisons between the ARC and the .223 - they likewise apply to comparisons between the .223 and the .223 Ackley and countless other caliber comparisons. I don't shoot an ARC, but do shoot a .22 Nosler, and the data in the manuals is not fiction with the Nosler. I'm curious as to why one would say the .22 ARC won't outperform a .223 from a velocity standpoint. Just disregard the extra velocity? The extra heat generated by the ARC, higher cost of brass lower barrel life and such can be factors when evaluating "performance" by some. I'm just talking differences in velocity and effect on bullet drop.

 

[LVLAaron]

I'm still waiting for any data from a 22 arc in a bolt gun.



You are shooting 223 with 80 smk at 2900 fps?

Yes. Hot load of AR-Comp. Wears out bolt parts and brass doesn't last long. But hey, we had things to win.

 

[LVLAaron]

Some numbers