Case collapse while using mandrel

[fattybinz]

Was neck sizing some alpha 6 dasher brass when I got two of these in a row (see below photo). Never happened to me before. I use a PMA carbide mandrel. Since that carbide is supposed to be smooth, I never bothered to lube the case mouth when using the mandrel. After these two collapses, I took the mandrel out and cleaned it well with some patches and thorroclean. It was pretty dirty...took a few patches until there was no dark stuff coming off. After it was cleaned up the rest of the brass in the batch neck sized fine and noticibly smoother.

So should I start lubing my case mouths when neck sizing? If so, what does everyone recommend? Or maybe lubing the mandrel somehow? Or maybe I just have to clean the mandrel every X rounds to avoid this? This mandrel had only gone about 100 rounds since the last cleaning before causing these two collapses.

Brass is x2 fired alpha brass. Annealed with a AMP annealer. Right now, when I F/L resize I put the brass in a plastic tote, spray it with Hornady one shot, and shake it around. I resize, wipe the lube off the outside with a cloth. So it may be that I'm shaking with the one shot the lube isnt getting into the neck? I used to stand the brass up on a loading block and spray at an angle where the inside of the neck got some, but then I saw an f-class John video where I think he just sprayed in a back and shook it up. A lot quicker, so I've been doing that since.

 

[Webster]

Was neck sizing some alpha 6 dasher brass when I got two of these in a row (see below photo). Never happened to me before. I use a PMA carbide mandrel. Since that carbide is supposed to be smooth, I never bothered to lube the case mouth when using the mandrel. After these two collapses, I took the mandrel out and cleaned it well with some patches and thorroclean. It was pretty dirty...took a few patches until there was no dark stuff coming off. After it was cleaned up the rest of the brass in the batch neck sized fine and noticibly smoother.

So should I start lubing my case mouths when neck sizing? If so, what does everyone recommend? Or maybe lubing the mandrel somehow? Or maybe I just have to clean the mandrel every X rounds to avoid this? This mandrel had only gone about 100 rounds since the last cleaning before causing these two collapses.

Brass is x2 fired alpha brass. Annealed with a AMP annealer. Right now, when I F/L resize I put the brass in a plastic tote, spray it with Hornady one shot, and shake it around. I resize, wipe the lube off the outside with a cloth. So it may be that I'm shaking with the one shot the lube isnt getting into the neck? I used to stand the brass up on a loading block and spray at an angle where the inside of the neck got some, but then I saw an f-class John video where I think he just sprayed in a back and shook it up. A lot quicker, so I've been doing that since.


View attachment 1643556

There is severe rubbing why would you not lube. I apply a petroleum oil with a q-tip. Pet oil has the best film strength. I also roll cases for sizing on a pad with pet oil. Oil has been the worlds best lube for over 100 years, why would you use something else. Seconds to clean each case after sizing with a paper towel.

 

[fattybinz]

There is severe rubbing why would you not lube. I apply a petroleum oil with a q-tip. Pet oil has the best film strength. I also roll cases for sizing on a pad with pet oil. Oil has been the worlds best lube for over 100 years, why would you use something else. Seconds to clean each case after sizing with a paper towel.

How do you use it? Lube the case, or the mandrel?

 

[Straightshooter1]

Was neck sizing some alpha 6 dasher brass when I got two of these in a row (see below photo). Never happened to me before. I use a PMA carbide mandrel. Since that carbide is supposed to be smooth, I never bothered to lube the case mouth when using the mandrel. After these two collapses, I took the mandrel out and cleaned it well with some patches and thorroclean. It was pretty dirty...took a few patches until there was no dark stuff coming off. After it was cleaned up the rest of the brass in the batch neck sized fine and noticibly smoother.

So should I start lubing my case mouths when neck sizing? If so, what does everyone recommend? Or maybe lubing the mandrel somehow? Or maybe I just have to clean the mandrel every X rounds to avoid this? This mandrel had only gone about 100 rounds since the last cleaning before causing these two collapses.

Brass is x2 fired alpha brass. Annealed with a AMP annealer. Right now, when I F/L resize I put the brass in a plastic tote, spray it with Hornady one shot, and shake it around. I resize, wipe the lube off the outside with a cloth. So it may be that I'm shaking with the one shot the lube isnt getting into the neck? I used to stand the brass up on a loading block and spray at an angle where the inside of the neck got some, but then I saw an f-class John video where I think he just sprayed in a back and shook it up. A lot quicker, so I've been doing that since.


View attachment 1643556

Hmmm??? You're not cleaning the brass after you anneal the brass?

Annealed brass leaves an abrasive coating on the surfaces of the neck and that can easily cause this issue. . . particularly if the mandrel has to do a lot of work on expanding the neck.

I anneal my brass after every firing and clean the necks afterwards before I do any sizing, like I vibrate tumble them with rice. I also use carbide mandrels and never have a need to use any lube when using them as the mandrel runs plenty smooth for me. And I never have an issue about having to remove any lube from the inside to safely drop powder.

 

[JMayo]

I lube every case with pma expanding oil or some heavy oil with a qtip
And go slow enough not to out run the expanding brass.
Also Making sure the base of the mandrel doesn't hit the case mouth before ending the stroke squashing the case.

Never heard or experienced annealing leaving any residue .

I do clean in a ultrasonic after. Use to I'd q tip with alcohol to clean off inside line

 

[Triple BB]

I used to use mica dust but would still collapse a case now and then. Now I just wipe a wooden q tip in Imperial wax and swab the inside of the neck. Have never collapsed a neck. Just make sure to clean the neck before proceeding with loading the shell.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Never heard or experienced annealing leaving any residue .

If you do any annealing, you can feel it with just your fingers, by comparing how the neck feels to how the body of the case feels. It's very distinct. Note that induction annealing leave less of that, particularly so with clean brass, than flame annealing does.

 

[1shot]

I use mink oil applied by waving the case mouth across a small chef's butane torch, for 1 second then pushing the case mouth into the tin of mink oil. The plug will stay in the container leaving a thin film inside the neck and I have never collapsed a case using this method.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[Fire Dog]

I have had exactly the same result on a few occasions and was using a Black Nitride mandrel that eventually seemed to get some brass build up that was nearly impossible to remove until using a “scratch free” scrubber along with BoreTec Cu2 + Bon Ami to finally get all the build up off the mandrel.
I clean every time with wet SS pins, AMP anneal and use a bore brush on a case prep station {That helped a lot but still allowed brass build up by not using any lubricant}
Not being able to access any NeoLube2 I made up my own with 100% Isopropyl alcohol and ultra fine graphite from a bottle of door lock lube that I already had
{a life time supply for about $10 for the alcohol}, applied with a Q-Tip to the inside of the case neck and that resolved the problem.
Application is quick and a loading block worth is ready to process immediately.
I got away with just using the mandrel for quite awhile before having problems but now the issue is resolved and I can defiantly tell that there is less force to neck up with the mandrel and bullet seating is also much smoother.
The alcohol evaporates quickly leaving just a slight film that does not need to be removed by any other additional step before loading the case.
I would advise using a bit of neck lube {of any sort} even if you are just using the pull through expander ball on your die and not mandrel expanding following FL sizing without the expander. You will find less force needed to get the expander back through the neck and less stress on the case and eliminate scratches on the inside to the neck.

 

[Rocketvapor]

What is your Neck I.D. before NECK SIZING?
After neck sizing but without mandrel?
You didn't mention body sizing.

 

[fattybinz]

Hmmm??? You're not cleaning the brass after you anneal the brass?

Annealed brass leaves an abrasive coating on the surfaces of the neck and that can easily cause this issue. . . particularly if the mandrel has to do a lot of work on expanding the neck.

I anneal my brass after every firing and clean the necks afterwards before I do any sizing, like I vibrate tumble them with rice. I also use carbide mandrels and never have a need to use any lube when using them as the mandrel runs plenty smooth for me. And I never have an issue about having to remove any lube from the inside to safely drop powder.

I decap, wet tumble, anneal. No good? Better to decap, anneal the dirty brass, then wet tumble?

 

[padom]

How much are you squeezing that neck down before trying to run the mandrel in it? Gotta be A LOT of neck tension before running the mandrel in to do that..

I just sized my 2x Alpha tumbled and annealed brass a few nights ago. Squeezed neck down 0.004 under loaded diameter with my LE Wilson FL bushing dies then opened the necks up 0.002 with my 21st Century TiN mandrel. The mandrel has barely any resistance when opening the necks back up that 0.002...

I throw all my brass in a bin and spray with lanolin lube mix and shake around. A lot of times most of the cases are standing up and I get a good spray in the necks....

 

[Steve Donlon]

After Annealing I clean out the inside of the necks then use a neck lubing brush to apply Imperial Dry Neck Lube to avoid any problems.

 

[Rocketvapor]

How much are you squeezing that neck down before trying to run the mandrel in it? Gotta be A LOT of neck tension before running the mandrel in to do that..

This /\

 

[Charlie-NY]

I use the moly/ceramic balls that Century 21 recommended. My mandrels are plain steel and I haven't had any issues with them.

 

[SeabeeKen]

I've lost a couple like that. Annealing made them soft and lack of lube. Lubing cured my issue

 

[fattybinz]

After Annealing I clean out the inside of the necks then use a neck lubing brush to apply Imperial Dry Neck Lube to avoid any problems.

How do you clean the inside of the necks? Nylon brush or something?

 

[fattybinz]

I've lost a couple like that. Annealing made them soft and lack of lube. Lubing cured my issue

What kind of lube, and how would you apply it, and in what order of operations? Thanks!

 

[fattybinz]

What is your Neck I.D. before NECK SIZING?
After neck sizing but without mandrel?
You didn't mention body sizing.

Damn, I don't have any unorepped cases to check now. If I remember correctly, the pre-mandrel necks were 5 thousands under where they would be post-mandrel. Too much?

 

[RustyInBend]

I always coat the inside of the case neck with NeoLube #2 prior to my mandrel step, and then leave the residual NeoLube in the neck to smooth the bullet seating process ... that works great for me ... never experienced any case damage whatsoever.