I found out that after sizing, if I tumble cases in rice to remove the lube, the rice leaves a dry film inside the neck that makes using a mandrel nice and smooth running.
Case collapse while using mandrel
- Thread starter fattybinz
- Start date
padom
Gold $$ Contributor
Measure a loaded round right now and write that down. After you fire them, measure the fired neck and write that down, then run one in your sizing die (idk if your running a FL sizer or bushing or what) and measure the neck... then liberally lube your neck ID with a qtip of imperial or similar and run the mandrel in and measure again and write that number down..
Now you can pull a lot of data points from these measurements and see what's going at each stage.. but most importantly is that fired measurement vs sized measurement before mandrel. I suspect your squeezing that case neck down a lot more than 0.005....
I’m surprised that without using any lube (of any make) that you didn’t collapse every case every time.
You tumble in rice just to get rid of the lube? Does it clean the brass also? I find that my cases are nice and shiny after wet tumbling, but with lube and handling through all the rest of the steps, it dulls out a lot.
I lube the case I.D. with a Q-tip since it's quicker to get all around. Either way works. Recentctly I don't use a mandrel just a bushing die. If your collapsing the case as much as in your pix it should be obvious that there is extreme friction. I don't know why people think carbide mandrels are self lubricating. I wipe the lube of the cases with a paper towel. The neck i.d. with a clean q-tip. Why does everyone want to make this complicated. Never polished the necks.
Do you need 20 people to tell you how to get oil on a neck or maandrel.
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padom
Gold $$ Contributor
I used rice for a while and it works but I went back to good old corn cob.... the rice left a gummy buildup in the case rim recess that had to be wiped or picked out.
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
Amp does suggest nylon brushing the inside of the neck after annealing.
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
After a couple of firings the burnt carbon left on the inside of the case is a pretty good lubricant when nylon brushed after annealing.
Absolutely true.
However I should have said that I never rely on that as a sufficient lube, and always use a lube of my choice.
As with everything I write it is only ‘in my experience’ and I’ll add I have never collapsed a case.
That’s only my experience, with my mandrels, with my lube, and using my press.
It is only what ‘I’ do, my experience, and not an instruction sheet for anyone, ever.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
This^^ I.e., find out what's actually going on -> the solution will be much easier to identify.
You can use graphite, sizing wax/lube applied inside the neck. I use my case lube and tumble them afterward to remove the lube so it doesn't affect the powder. Worst thing you can do is mandrel a neck that has been cleaned to bare metal. Even carbon in the neck will help to some extent
Larryh128
Silver $$ Contributor
I anneal after every firing. Decap, body die, full length size w/ no expander ball, then expander mandrel, trim to length, OD & ID champers, then nylon brush thru neck. Before anything, I stand them up on a piece of paper towel, I use H One Shot spray sprayed all 4 sides plus at the necks. I have never had a collapsing issue using this spray technique. Then in a tumbler with 50/50 treated corn cob and medium grain rice. The issue that I've seen guys have with wet cleaning is the case is TOOO clean and has 0 lubricity.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
The brass is TOO SOFT!! Back off on the annealing. Been there, had the same thing happen to me. Annealing is good but too much is bad. (as you found out) 
We learn as we go. 
And NO, you DON'T need 20 people to tell you how to get oil on a neck or mandrel. A little dab will do ya.
We learn as we go. And NO, you DON'T need 20 people to tell you how to get oil on a neck or mandrel. A little dab will do ya.
The brass is TOO SOFT!! Back off on the annealing. Been there, had the same thing happen to me. Annealing is good but too much is bad. (as you found out)
And NO, you DON'T need 20 people to tell you how to get oil on a neck or mandrel. A little dab will do ya.
I used the AMP Aztec analysis process to sacrifice a case and get the optimal anneal settings for these cases. That case that was sacrificed was the same brass and lot as these that collapsed. My understanding is that the settings you get from this process are ideal and you shouldn't mess with it. But you would back it off some? I think maybe I'll work on lubing the inside of the necks before I start messing with the AMP.
When you wet tumble before annealing, there is some of your cleaning solution and/or water solubles (e.g. calcium deposits) left on the surfaces that the high heat from annealing burns leaving a residual abrasive oxidation layer.
To avoid this, it's best to wet tumble after you anneal. Be careful though, as squeaky clean neck surface will have a somewhat high friction coefficient and my need to be lubed anyway. This is why is best to tumble without SS pins to leave some of the carbon deposit on the inside of the necks for reduced friction.
After many years of using rice, I've never had that issue! Makes me wonder how rice would get so wet to cause something to "gummy" things up??? Like, really humid air???
padom
Gold $$ Contributor
After many years of using rice, I've never had that issue! Makes me wonder how rice would get so wet to cause something to "gummy" things up??? Like, really humid air???
Nope, I have a full temp controlled room. Humidity is 40% .. Its not wet, its just like a thick compacted buildup of white dust from the rice..
Might be the type/brand of rice I was using... But I went back to CC and have zero issues.
Tumble in Walnut shells, anneal, use a body only die then the LCD to .002 under bullet OD.
I know most don't like this method but my necks go from as fired then get sized down with the LCD.
I know most don't like this method but my necks go from as fired then get sized down with the LCD.
RCBS Lube kit.
Sizing- Redding type S bushing die. STOP over sizing the necks.
Die Link. Bushing should be .002" smaller then a loaded rounds outside Neck Diameter.
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Never liked shaking brass in a bag with lube. There was always some parts of the cases that were still without lube. And the inside of the necks definitely don't get lubed. I just stand the cases in a loading block and spray them at a 45 degree angle. This lubes the cases AND the inside of the necks. I also used Forster FL dies that have been honed to .243" (for .223 Rem). This way the mandrel is not expanding the necks very much.
And as mentioned before, annealing does create a residue on the case. I ultrasonic clean the cases and then tumble with walnut shells before sizing.
And as mentioned before, annealing does create a residue on the case. I ultrasonic clean the cases and then tumble with walnut shells before sizing.
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