understanding the 86 blackout

[Steve Donlon]

https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDevelopment/Handloads-for-the-86-Blackout/2760 I found this information this morning about the 86 blackout. I did not understand what this round was all about. This helped me.

 

[ebb]

I read what was offered to the unsubscribed, and i surely do not understand why. He listed quite a few loads sub sonic and super sonic, and only one I saw had energy over 1000ft lbs. Many states and most ethical hunters believe this to be minimum for safe and ethical hunting. I must confess to have being enamored with the idea of a 338 dia suppressed rifle. I read Peter R Senich's book many years ago and the earlier attempts had me wanting one desperately. The 8.6 has killed all of that. If the author really wants to hunt with supersonic ammo, what's the point get a 308 win and be done with it. 308 win has way more power that 1000 ft lbs and requires none of the work to make one of the 8.6s to function, I think I still want one but the real world performance tells me no.

 

[ebb]

An Ar 10 in 300 savage or 308 Winchester would be an awesome hog rifle. I have on several occasions walked up on a herd and could not cycle the rifle fast enough, to get an aimed shot all that needed shot. I was just really underwhelmed with the energy numbers. This sounds like a 30/30 would have an advantage, but I have not run the numbers. There are a lot of things in life that sound good, but reality will not allow them to live up to expectations, this may be one of them. Even if I wish it were not true. I still have a 338 win mag in the back of the safe, and power has never been an issue with it, wish this was the same.

 

[ELR LVR]

https://loaddata.com/Article/LoadDevelopment/Handloads-for-the-86-Blackout/2760 I found this information this morning about the 86 blackout. I did not understand what this round was all about. This helped me.

Big heavy bullet capable of being used suppressed out to 200 yds.
Good deer gun
More kill energy than a 300 Blk.
it is a somewhat ineresting cartridge to run suppressed no doubt.

 

[spaniel]

It's more than the 300BLK. But if you are about hunting subsonic 458SOCOM is already a thing...or 375 Raptor if you want even less recoil. Once you are limited to subsonic increasing caliber is really the only way to add more oomph.

 

[ELR LVR]

Once you are limited to subsonic increasing caliber is really the only way to add more oomph.

Precisely! No replacement for displacement when it comes to surface area when subsonic
I'm not into these calibers but
the 375 thing seems very interesting to me

 

[ISS]

I went common sense and effectiveness. An AR-10 in 358 Winchester. For sub, a 300 gr cast bullet RFN.
Super, 250 jacketed. Mine shoots under 2" at 200 yards for five. And, I can load 20 rounds in a Magpul 308 magazine.

The 8.6 seems like a silly answer to a question nobody asked; but wanted to make money on. Short and fat ain't always the answer in cartridge design.

 

[Steve Donlon]

I thought the 8.6 was in a AR 15 but in a AR10 it seems to limiting for a AR10. Why be able to shoot only 200 yards when a 308 will go much further? Just asking? I'm just not into the subsonic world so I guess that's my reason for not being into one. I understand if your are hunting game though.

 

[LVLAaron]

I think the creator of the round is a mega-douche. However, it is interesting round with the rotational energy.

@Steve Donlon - It's "designed" with Q's custom 4k guns in mind: https://liveqordie.com/the-fix/

 

[ebb]

How does the 3 in 12 twist effect barrel life?

 

[Hoser]

The 8.6 seems to be the worst of both worlds.

Not enough oomph for supersonic ammo and too much room in the case for accurate subs.

For a dedicated sub the 338 Specter is a solid choice.

For a super get a 338-08 if you want to sling heavy 338 bullets.

 

[LVLAaron]

^ I'll agree with that. That's why I'm liking the 338 arc/br/spectre/etc

Is there a stick powder fast enough for heavy subs?

 

[markm87]

There's no shortage of retardation in the gun realm. I only hope Kel Tec will build a gun for the round so it will become legendary!

 

[Hoser]

^ I'll agree with that. That's why I'm liking the 338 arc/br/spectre/etc

Is there a stick powder fast enough for heavy subs?

Vhit N-110

 

[dellet]

I read what was offered to the unsubscribed, and i surely do not understand why. He listed quite a few loads sub sonic and super sonic, and only one I saw had energy over 1000ft lbs. Many states and most ethical hunters believe this to be minimum for safe and ethical hunting. I must confess to have being enamored with the idea of a 338 dia suppressed rifle. I read Peter R Senich's book many years ago and the earlier attempts had me wanting one desperately. The 8.6 has killed all of that. If the author really wants to hunt with supersonic ammo, what's the point get a 308 win and be done with it. 308 win has way more power that 1000 ft lbs and requires none of the work to make one of the 8.6s to function, I think I still want one but the real world performance tells me no.

Please don’t take this as an attack, but more to add a little understanding or perspective. Many people use this argument against subsonic hunting. Many have not thought it through.

The part about ”many states and most ethical hunters believe” is Very misleading. The criteria listed of 1000 pounds of energy is also generally qualified with “at 100 yards”, and basically if it’s part of the hunting regulations, must be certified by the manufacturer. No hand loads.

If we accept the 1000 pound energy rule as being the only ethical way to hunt, you can forget handguns, most black powder(certainly traditional), many shot guns, all archery.

The first thing I’ll point out is that most places that have a 1000 pound regulation for Rifle, also have a 500 pound limit for Handgun. This in itself proves the regulations are not about Ballistics. A cartridge considered legal and ethical in a pistol with a 14” barrel is illegal in a rifle with a barrel of the same length, or longer. Rifles with shorter than 16” barrels were fairly common before NFA, and are still legally used for hunting today. So a pistol with a 15.9” barrel only needs half the energy at a shorter distance, than a “rifle” with a 6” barrel. Buttstocks Lives Matter.

Based on the above guidelines no cartridge with a subsonic velocity, with a bullet less than around 475 grains would be considered “ethical or legal ”. If used in a rifle. But a 220 grain bullet in a pistol is fine.

If we go down the archery path, 100 pounds, 1/10 of 1000, of energy is probably not very common. Requiring 300 grains, a common minimum weight, at over 300 fps. Most regulations require at least a 7/8” cutting width.

I could easily counter the above quote about needing 1000 pounds of energy to ethically hunt, with what many hunters believe and states allow, who choose not to use a “high power rifle”, that if you need 1000 pounds of energy to down most big game species in North America, you’re not much of a hunter.

I understand why the regulations are there, but it really has nothing to do with ballistics or terminal effects. It’s all about trying to regulate knowledge, understanding and morality. Good luck with that.

The 8.6 Blackout is an outside the box attempt at increasing terminal effect, without increasing bullet weight or velocity. No real difference than ground hog shooters that don’t want a bullet that passes through, they want a bullet same weight and velocity that picks one up off his feet and spin them.

Subsonic hunting is not for everyone, but as an avid bow hunter at one point in life, the concept of placing bullet energy over shot placement and shooting ability, is a completely foreign concept.

 

[ebb]

I do not take this as an attack, just another opinion. A broad head doesn't work on energy, it works on blood loss, arrow speed dia of blade cutting radius. I shot a hog in what some describe as a Texas heart shot, a 115 grain thunder head and only the nock sticking out, so it had 27 -28 inches of penetration and it got up to run off. I made the same shot in the chest and it finally died. I do not think that it was a good kill. I am not proud of it at all. But yes I'll give you the close range with a handgun and a suppressed rifle. I was sold on a 300BLK when they first came out, till I looked at a trajectory chart. I want a suppressed rifle, but am under whelmed with the performance. My yard where I live is 315.73 feet wide, I could have predators 2 legged or 4 legged that would be out of range in my yard. I guess I just want too much.

 

[dellet]

I do not take this as an attack, just another opinion. A broad head doesn't work on energy, it works on blood loss, arrow speed dia of blade cutting radius. I shot a hog in what some describe as a Texas heart shot, a 115 grain thunder head and only the nock sticking out, so it had 27 -28 inches of penetration and it got up to run off. I made the same shot in the chest and it finally died. I do not think that it was a good kill. I am not proud of it at all. But yes I'll give you the close range with a handgun and a suppressed rifle. I was sold on a 300BLK when they first came out, till I looked at a trajectory chart. I want a suppressed rifle, but am under whelmed with the performance. My yard where I live is 315.73 feet wide, I could have predators 2 legged or 4 legged that would be out of range in my yard. I guess I just want too much.

More opinion.

Yes, a Texas heart shot on any animal other than a turkey, is pretty well off limits with a bow. Maybe if you’re culling animals for depredation and don’t care when, where or how long it takes for them to die. But that’s not hunting.

Here’s the thing with subsonic hunting, it’s basically handgun on an easier to aim format. More reliable hits. With only 100 yards to defend, you will likely never have a shot over 75 yards. If you need to shoot something 3 houses down the road, things are really bad. It sounds like over penetration would be more of a concern than under.

With almost any (if I say all, someone will find an outlier) subsonic loads, caliber doesn’t matter, zeroed at 100 yards you’ll have a 3-3 1/2” arc to impact. That means with the crosshairs placed on the upper lip or ear lobe, someone is having their attitude changed. That’s minute of heart for just about any animal over 50 pounds.

One last thing, you don’t have to shoot subs to take advantage of a suppressor

A 300 BLK with supers zeroed at 100 yards will have more shooter compensation needed for sight over bore height within the first 20 yards, than it will need for the next 150 yards.

Honestly, I’d be more worried about bears and lions with the cartridge as a bump in the night surprise than anything two legged. Bears are known to run 100 yards and bite your face off before they realize they’re dead.