338 ARC & 300 BLK for hunting

[SD guy]

While looking Over Hornady Ammo lately I noticed 3 of there 300 BLK loads are listed as hunting loads while neither 338 ARC loads are listed for hunting.

One of the 300 BLK hunting loads was the 190 gr SUB-X while the 307 gr 338 ARC SUB-X load was only suggested as a target load.

Anyone care to float any ideas why the 338 ARC SUB-X offering is not being marketed as a hunting load while the 300 BLK SUB-X offering is being suggested as a hunting load?

 

[SD guy]

Looking over potential sub-sonic hunting bullets for either of these cartridges, the Maker bullets seem most promising to me. Are there others that are perhaps more economical a fella should consider as well?

 

[mattri]

Berrys 220gr plated and the 190 sub-x both expanded well at subsonic vel @ 50 yards in my very unscientific wet newspaper test. YMMV

 

[LVLAaron]

Where are you seeing 338 ARC load data?


Do you have dies? I've been waiting 5 months on a back order and haven't seen them in stock anywhere.

 

[LVLAaron]

Looking over potential sub-sonic hunting bullets for either of these cartridges, the Maker bullets seem most promising to me. Are there others that are perhaps more economical a fella should consider as well?

A lot of the 8.6 blackout guys like Makers. 338 arc would be shooting the same speeds so I'd go for them.

 

[17tombstone]

I reached out to Hornady and they said by the end of March for their dies.

 

[SD guy]

Where are you seeing 338 ARC load data?


Do you have dies? I've been waiting 5 months on a back order and haven't seen them in stock anywhere.

I Have yet to see dies or load data for the 338 ARC. Suppose I am only exploring the viability of either the 300 BLK or the 338 ARC as a subsonic hunting cartridge. Trying to warm up to the idea & thus far I have not warmed up to the idea of subsonic anything for hunting, as much as I want to I am thinking I may just stick to super Sonic loads for what I do.

I' may save subsonic for hunting with Sticks & strings. While I do enjoy Archery deer hunting. Subsonic rifle deer hunting may, or may not be in my future.

 

[LVLAaron]

I Have yet to see dies or load data for the 338 ARC. Suppose I am only exploring the viability of either the 300 BLK or the 338 ARC as a subsonic hunting cartridge. Trying to warm up to the idea & thus far I have not warmed up to the idea of subsonic anything for hunting, as much as I want to I am thinking I may just stick to super Sonic loads for what I do.

I don't hunt so don't take my word for it; but there are some pretty incredible looking heavy as 338 projectiles available. Plenty of 8.6 videos on youtube

 

[dantiff2]

If hunting is even a consideration, bigger is better when it comes to subsonic rounds! There is no supersonic shell shock at all with subsonic bullet performance so you need the diameter and weight to do the work for you. I've personally taken deer with the sub X bullet (395 gn*450 bushmaster*) and it works just fine. Performance was identical on multiple animals, so I now trust their performance and consider it reliable. I would personally opt for the 338 over the 300 if I was given a choice.

 

[dellet]

If hunting is even a consideration, bigger is better when it comes to subsonic rounds! There is no supersonic shell shock at all with subsonic bullet performance so you need the diameter and weight to do the work for you. I've personally taken deer with the sub X bullet (395 gn*450 bushmaster*) and it works just fine. Performance was identical on multiple animals, so I now trust their performance and consider it reliable. I would personally opt for the 338 over the 300 if I was given a choice.

I’m kind of surprised that you say there is no “super sonic shell shock” assuming you mean energy dump causing tissue damage. It’s all about bullet weight, impact velocity, and how fast it stops. Assuming the bullet is designed to not exit, as most subsonic hunting or defense bullets are, look at the numbers.

The 395 Subx 1050 fps MV, delivers the same energy at 700 yards, that your basic 230 grain 45 acp has at the muzzle. Around 450 pounds. More or less the exact same wound channel if the expansion rate and penetration is the same.

The 338 ARC really doesn’t have enough information out yet on velocity drops that I could find, but it will likely be about the same story. Compared to a 357 magnum with a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. The 338 ARC 307 grain bullet will have that same energy, to be conservative let’s guess it 4-500 yards.

The 300 blackout is ballistically challenged. With subs there is not a lot of energy. Compare it to the 45 ACP, 230 grains at 950 MV, with a 220 grain 300 Blackout at 1050, and the Blackout will have the same energy at 125 yards as the 45 at the muzzle.

Compare the 220 grain Blackout sub with a 357 magnum 180 grain at 1200 fps and you have similar muzzle energy numbers 550/580 advantage to the 357. But because of better ballistics, the Blackout will have the available energy advantage past about 50 yards.

Just a different way of looking at bullet terminal performance.

 

[dantiff2]

I’m kind of surprised that you say there is no “super sonic shell shock” assuming you mean energy dump causing tissue damage. It’s all about bullet weight, impact velocity, and how fast it stops. Assuming the bullet is designed to not exit, as most subsonic hunting or defense bullets are, look at the numbers.

The 395 Subx 1050 fps MV, delivers the same energy at 700 yards, that your basic 230 grain 45 acp has at the muzzle. Around 450 pounds. More or less the exact same wound channel if the expansion rate and penetration is the same.

The 338 ARC really doesn’t have enough information out yet on velocity drops that I could find, but it will likely be about the same story. Compared to a 357 magnum with a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. The 338 ARC 307 grain bullet will have that same energy, to be conservative let’s guess it 4-500 yards.

The 300 blackout is ballistically challenged. With subs there is not a lot of energy. Compare it to the 45 ACP, 230 grains at 950 MV, with a 220 grain 300 Blackout at 1050, and the Blackout will have the same energy at 125 yards as the 45 at the muzzle.

Compare the 220 grain Blackout sub with a 357 magnum 180 grain at 1200 fps and you have similar muzzle energy numbers 550/580 advantage to the 357. But because of better ballistics, the Blackout will have the available energy advantage past about 50 yards.

Just a different way of looking at bullet terminal performance.

I'm not comparing numbers on paper. I'm telling you what I see in real life. There is no shell shock. No blood shock or damage other than the golf ball sized hole, straight through. I have first hand experience. I butcher all of my own wild game meat. Both white-tailed deer hit with my 395's had complete pass throughs. Both wounds looked identical. One was through a shoulder and out behind the other and the second deer was a through and through, behind both shoulders. The entrance hole in the meat (under the hide) was 2"+ and continued straight through the animal. You can eat the meat at the edge of the bulllet hole. I've never been able to do that with a supersonic round. There's always bone fragments and blood shocked gel with standard velo ammo.. Hunting with sub 450 is my favorite way to take an animal for food now. No waste!

 

[dellet]

Subsonic is all about bullet performance, if it doesn’t open, it won’t perform.

In your example, you wonder what the exit velocity was. Say it was 1000 going in and 800 coming out. Basically dumps as much energy as a 100 grain bullet from the powerhouse 380 ACP can muster.

You’re absolutely right about there being less tissue damage. Having a difference of 1000 pounds of energy transfer is huge. My point would have been better made using a term more like stopping power. Secondary wound channel aside, it f you think you can kill something with a .452” 230 grain bullet at 950 fps close enough to put powder burns on the hide, then any 452” bullet delivering the same energy should have the same confidence level. If you can believe the ballistic tables your 395 grain bullet will do that at 700 yards, if you can make the shot.

Not disputing anything your saying, more trying to support it. Sub sonic hunting takes a different way of thinking.

 

[mic2377]

Completely agree with the points here. To return to the OP's question, whether or not the 338 ARC ammo would be marketed for hunting depends on whether Hornady has tested that particular bullet for expansion. Apparently the 300 BLK loads with the 190 Subx will expand at velocities of over 900 fps.

Now in practicality, the posters above have it nailed. What is necessary for reliable subsonic performance is a soft bullet with good sectional density and adequate frontal area to create tissue damage if expansion is suboptimal.

 

[WV Hitman]

I've taken about 120 deer, 4 turkeys, several coyotes, hundreds of groundhogs with my subsonic Whisper (aka Blackout). Tested many bullets, even was a tester for Lehigh Defense when they were getting in to the business. The ONLY 2 bullets that had exceptional performance ( drop at shot and damage) are the Sierra 220 gr. RN Game King and the Lehigh 186 gr. Controlled Fracturing bullet.
This round was developed by JD Jones using Sierra 240 gr. HPBT Match bullets. They killed by tumbling, but were not always effective. JD asked me to experiment with other bullets. Other lesser weight Sierra Match bullets were terrible. Original Lehigh bullets didn't work. The two I mentioned were far superior to anything else I tested.
Never used a .338 ARC, but did shot several deer with the .338 Whisper, .375 Whisper. The bullets for these just didn't perform like the .300. Shot 2 does this year in season with the 220 Sierra. They never moved.

 

[SD guy]

I've taken about 120 deer, 4 turkeys, several coyotes, hundreds of groundhogs with my subsonic Whisper (aka Blackout). Tested many bullets, even was a tester for Lehigh Defense when they were getting in to the business. The ONLY 2 bullets that had exceptional performance ( drop at shot and damage) are the Sierra 220 gr. RN Game King and the Lehigh 186 gr. Controlled Fracturing bullet.
This round was developed by JD Jones using Sierra 240 gr. HPBT Match bullets. They killed by tumbling, but were not always effective. JD asked me to experiment with other bullets. Other lesser weight Sierra Match bullets were terrible. Original Lehigh bullets didn't work. The two I mentioned were far superior to anything else I tested.
Never used a .338 ARC, but did shot several deer with the .338 Whisper, .375 Whisper. The bullets for these just didn't perform like the .300. Shot 2 does this year in season with the 220 Sierra. They never moved.

So, about the Sierra 220 gr RN - are you, experiencing significant expansion at subsonic velocity? What shot placement have you come to strive for with the subsonic rounds?

Perhaps I am incorrectly assuming that your experience with the Sierra 220 gr RN & the Lehigh 186 gr. Controlled Fracturing bullet were subsonic. Suppose I should insure I am interpreting this correctly regarding subsonic or supersonic loads were used with the 300 Whisper. I see considerable more velocity is available with the 220 gr projectile per the sierra data in the link below.

What twist rate does your 300 whisper utilize?

Sierra Bullets 300 AAC Blackout Load Data

Test Specifications/Components Firearm Used: Universal Receiver Barrel Length: 16″ Twist: 1-8’’ Case: Hornady Trim-to Length: 1.363″ Primer: Winchester WSR Remarks: The 300 AAC Blackout…

sierrabullets.wordpress.com

 

[WV Hitman]

SD Guy, I've NEVER shot supersonic rounds in my Whisper. My 220 Sierras expand a little, plus tumble like JD Jones intended for this round to be used/perform. I use a mildot scope on my Whisper since subsonic bullets fly like a thrown rock.
The 186 Lehighs shoot flatter than the 220 RN so I use one dot higher than the 220 on my scope.
I shoot deer either high shoulder or double lung. If the deer has seen me or is excited, he'll run75 yds. or so with either shot.
If the deer has not seen me he'll run a little on a shoulder shot, BUT on a double lung shot they usually flinch a little and stand in place, THEN drop 30-45 seconds later. They rarely run after the lung shot when I'm not seen or they are not excited. There's always an exception, like 2 years ago when I shot a heavy 8 pt. in buck season at 240 yds. in a driving wind/rain storm. A high shoulder shot dropped him!!! 1/2" exit, 3/4" internal damage. This was with the 220 RN!
I use the 220s mostly since they are much less expensive than the Lehighs. JD developed the Whisper using 240 Sierra HPBT Match bullets. They don't perform like the 220 RN- no expansion, weird looking exits & internal damage. The 220s work great on turkeys, coyotes, and groundhogs.
My Whisper is 1:10.

 

[SD guy]

SD Guy, I've NEVER shot supersonic rounds in my Whisper. My 220 Sierras expand a little, plus tumble like JD Jones intended for this round to be used/perform. I use a mildot scope on my Whisper since subsonic bullets fly like a thrown rock.
The 186 Lehighs shoot flatter than the 220 RN so I use one dot higher than the 220 on my scope.
I shoot deer either high shoulder or double lung. If the deer has seen me or is excited, he'll run75 yds. or so with either shot.
If the deer has not seen me he'll run a little on a shoulder shot, BUT on a double lung shot they usually flinch a little and stand in place, THEN drop 30-45 seconds later. They rarely run after the lung shot when I'm not seen or they are not excited. There's always an exception, like 2 years ago when I shot a heavy 8 pt. in buck season at 240 yds. in a driving wind/rain storm. A high shoulder shot dropped him!!! 1/2" exit, 3/4" internal damage. This was with the 220 RN!
I use the 220s mostly since they are much less expensive than the Lehighs. JD developed the Whisper using 240 Sierra HPBT Match bullets. They don't perform like the 220 RN- no expansion, weird looking exits & internal damage. The 220s work great on turkeys, coyotes, and groundhogs.
My Whisper is 1:10.

WV Hitman, all good information. I recently watched a podcast by Hornady where in military applications, We will say DOD may have encountered a issue with bullets that no longer were tumbling on impact like they used to. What the DOD folks may have been overlooking was that they had went to faster twist barrel & that may have been the factor on bullets not tumbling nearly as quickly after impact.

Thus I ask what twist rate, does your Whisper run.

Say for example you are running a 10 twist in your Whisper & I am running a 7 twist in the BLK, I should not be completely surprised if you are experiencing different terminal effect than I am even though we are running the same velocity. Could be easy to over look, that our RPM may vary considerably.

 

[WV Hitman]

SD, my Whisper is 1:10.
As far as military: I tested bullets for Lehigh Defense for many years, particularly in the .300 Whisper. I took pics of terminal damage & sent them to Lehigh. The first 5 bullets were not good in that aspect. BUT, #6, the 186 gr. Controlled Chaos ( solid base, decent nose cavity, AND a .17 cal. bullet in that cavity) showed great effects. Lehigh sold 200,000 of those bullets to " a certain government agency" for very big bucks.

I was not impressed with the Horn. subsonics due to their lighter weight, shorter length, and shooting no where close to my Lehighs & 220 Sierras.
I'm a firm believer in not fixing anything that is broken. My 220 Horn. & 186 Lehighs have performed excellent for 20-30 years. I have no intentions of using anything else just because it's new. Same goes with powder. JD developed the .300 Whisper with WW296. That's all I've used since the .300s inception. Getting 1025-1050 fps. Did that big buck at 240 & earlier did a doe at 270 with a Sierra 240 HPBT Match (ran a ways). I'd say 296 groups my bullets well in my Whisper. I won't be changing for the sake of changing/

 

[SD guy]

In the case of cup & core sub sonic bullets I am suspecting the 1 in 10 twist perhaps 1 in 9ish, may outperform the 1 in 7 twist though I have no personal experience to support this. I value your experience.

I would think that Lehigh would do well with any twist mentioned above perhaps better with the faster twist.

Thank you for sharing,

 

[dellet]

There are a lot of variables shooting subsonic. Bullet choice is one of the biggest, but before that, type of action needs to be addressed. Powder choices will be completely different for a hand fed action vs semi auto. This effects noise reduction and loading technique.

With a 300 Whisper/Blackout A 1/10 twist limits bullet choice and there are some good ones left on the table. Stability is a factor of length, not so much weight. Most of the better performing bullets out there are solids. What this means is that they are light for length. Rule of thumb is that a lead core jacketed bullet will weigh about 10% more than the exact same profile made from copper. So now a 220 grain round nose or SMK would weigh in at 200 grains. Add a hollow point and pressure bands and the weight drops further. A good example is the Lehigh 168 controlled fracturing bullet that is only .030” shorter than a 240 SMK at 1.565” long. That’s a 30% weight loss. Stopping power with a slow bullet needs weight.

Another example would be the Lehigh 194 Max Expansion. It’s a great bullet, but will not perform in 1/10 twist. It’s length is 1.525”. The 240 SMK is barely stable in a 1/10. Thats why it tumbles reliably. The 194 is less stable. The problem that creates is a nose off center impact. For the bullet to expand properly, the hollow point needs to hit square the the impact. Sadly it won’t perform in a 1/5 which is a very popular twist for an SBR in 300 BLK. Designed for a 1/7 subsonic, the bullet starts opening up in flight around 1250 fps, or 130,000 rpm. At 1050 fps in a 1/5 it’s spinning 150,000 rpm.

The Hornady 190 is a great bullet for its design. It was designed for the Hornady TAP line, Tactical Application for Police. The police and military don’t hunt 120 pound white tails, other wise they would probably reject this bullet. The requirement of the FBI standards would be rejected by most hunters for a clean kill and no tracking. That said, it reliably expands to double caliber and is easy to tune. Much better than the Nosler 190 that won’t expand below 950 fps.

Maker bullets use a round nose and more or less a flat base, it’s cupped, so their bullets offer more weight. The 220 will reliably expand to almost 3x caliber and retain 100% of the weight. The 200 works fine in a 1/10 past 200 yards, and do not come apart in a 1/5.

Main thing with subsonic hunting is it more or less requires a change in mindset. There is much less secondary trauma do to bullet speed. You can’t shoot something in the butt and “turn the heart and lungs to jello”. But a 3/4” hole through the heart and lungs with an additional 1” of tissue damage due to shock, stops most game pretty quick. That means often tracking skills are required.

Subsonic hunting requires a more attentive hunter. Know how your bullet performs and where to place it. Know the animals anatomy. Don’t outshoot you ability. Be prepared to track.

I probably prefer a 1/10 twist as I prefer supers, but a 1/10 will probably satabilize 85-90% of the bullets out there at 1000 fps. It’s the specialty bullets that cause problems. If you think about twist as screw thread, an expanding bullet that basically augers through tissue will cut more tissue with a faster twist, and tends to dump more kinetic energy faster. A1/5 cuts a much different path than a 1/10.

First step is define purpose, hunting and ultimate quiet, it’s hard to beat a bolt action. An AR allows more choices as uppers with different length barrels and twists are easier. They can be multipurpose easier.

Hope that helps some without adding confusion.