C4...working?

[Murray Brook]

Clean patches don't mean much. A borescope lets you know what your bore is really like.

 

[ShtrRdy]

.

Is it the Eliminator, C4, the brushing, or the dry patching that's cleaning your bore?

And do you use a bore scope, or just quit when the dry patches are clean?

I use a Teslong bore scope

 

[mic2377]

If you clean immediately after shooting at the range while the barrel is warm, it helps with carbon removal. Cleaning between relays also helps to keep the carbon buildup in check.
Quality bronze brushes! I like Pro Shot brushes. The only thing I use nylon for is brushing case necks now. Even the primo, stiffer, nylon brushes are inferior to bronze brushes IN MY EXPERIENCES.
Cleaned a barrel with Iosso nylon and C4 over a 24hr period, wet patch roughly every 4hrs after initial patching and brushing until bed time. Brushed again the next morning, according to the patches, the carbon was gone. Bore scope said otherwise. Cleaned again, but with bronze brush and the patches were filthy. This was with a BR gun with a Kreiger barrel with less than 50 shots on the barrel.
I can’t duplicate other people’s claims and results when it comes to nylon brushes and cleaning products. Why, I don’t know!
Since getting a bore scope I have become so cynical of the gun cleaning product market.

Fellow local BR competitor and I have had numerous conversations about cleaning. Best barrel he ever had, a barrel that continuously shot 250, high X count scores. Only thing that barrel ever saw were bronze brushes and Wipeout cleaner, and a VERY INFREQUENT cleaning with abrasive for a few strokes when the gun didn’t score to expectations. He never had a bore scope and said that barrel probably looked awful if a scope had been ran down it, but it shot lights out. Moral of the story, let the barrel and scores tell you what it needs.

+1 on getting a few wet patches down the bore right after the range being EXTREMELY effective. Getting some bore solvent in the bore immediately after shooting, and letting it sit overnight, really does wonders in softening carbon fouling and making it much easier to remove long-term. It doesn't have to be a fancy solvent, with Hoppes #9 working fine.

I used to be in the camp of extremely infrequent cleanings unless a dramatic deterioration in accuracy. However I had recently started shooting a 22 CM and 6.5 PRC which require more intensive cleaning to maintain performance. After reading the bore cleaning thread started by Frank Green over at Sniper's Hide I decided to give the above approach a try. It has really helped keep carbon under control and make the more intensive cleaning that I do every 150-200 rounds much easier.

 

[Turkeytider]

I’m nervous about metal brushes through my barrels, so I try to stay ahead of bad carbon build up by cleaning after each range session ( usually 20-30 rounds per session ). I use C4 after each session, patches come out black, progressively less so. If I allow the C4 to sit for a while, it will come out green from picking up some copper as well. Finish up with a couple of Clenzoil patches followed by a dry patch. Every second or third cleaning I give the barrels a Kroil penetrating oil soak as well and a light ( 20 strokes ) application of JB bore cleaning compound after every 300 rounds or so. Haven’t bore scoped the barrels, probably should, but wouldn’t know what the hell I was looking at anyway!

 

[JEFFPPC]

I’m nervous about metal brushes through my barrels, so I try to stay ahead of bad carbon build up by cleaning after each range session ( usually 20-30 rounds per session ). I use C4 after each session, patches come out black, progressively less so. If I allow the C4 to sit for a while, it will come out green from picking up some copper as well. Finish up with a couple of Clenzoil patches followed by a dry patch. Every second or third cleaning I give the barrels a Kroil penetrating oil soak as well and a light ( 20 strokes ) application of JB bore cleaning compound after every 300 rounds or so. Haven’t bore scoped the barrels, probably should, but wouldn’t know what the hell I was looking at anyway!

If the accuracy is holding just keep going. I always have this thought (dangerous). Pre borescopes most of us probably were leaving some carbon in the barrel. Was this relatively thin layer of carbon actually helping to protect the barrel from heat and wear? Now the commercial powers that be would never consider this I am sure, there is money involved you know. It just seems as we have went to perhaps excessive cleaning. Excessive in most thing in life is not usually the best. I wonder.

 

[Tesoro]

I’m nervous about metal brushes through my barrels, so I try to stay ahead of bad carbon build up by cleaning after each range session ( usually 20-30 rounds per session ). I use C4 after each session, patches come out black, progressively less so. If I allow the C4 to sit for a while, it will come out green from picking up some copper as well. Finish up with a couple of Clenzoil patches followed by a dry patch. Every second or third cleaning I give the barrels a Kroil penetrating oil soak as well and a light ( 20 strokes ) application of JB bore cleaning compound after every 300 rounds or so. Haven’t bore scoped the barrels, probably should, but wouldn’t know what the hell I was looking at anyway!

Going though your elaborate cleaning process while wearing a blindfold is pointless !! First get a bore scope (teslong), some no harm Dewey bronze brushes and toss everything but the JB !

 

[Turkeytider]

If the accuracy is holding just keep going. I always have this thought (dangerous). Pre borescopes most of us probably were leaving some carbon in the barrel. Was this relatively thin layer of carbon actually helping to protect the barrel from heat and wear? Now the commercial powers that be would never consider this I am sure, there is money involved you know. It just seems as we have went to perhaps excessive cleaning. Excessive in most thing in life is not usually the best. I wonder.

Through 1700 round, I can’t see any diminished accuracy with my Savage Model 12 LRPV in .223. Of course, that’s not a lot of rounds for a .223. Maybe if I waited 100 + rounds or so before running ANYTHING through my barrels, or waiting until “ the rifle tells me it needs to be cleaned”, I might have some carbon related issues? I don’t know.

 

[LCazador]

I have used C4 as a "soak" and nothing seems to happen. I think it requires some sort of mechanical action to remove carbon. I use C4 on a patch and it usually takes about 10-15 patches short stroking to get the barrel down to the copper streaks. I follow with Eliminator to remove the copper streaks, usually another 5-6 patches. I clean the chamber end by twirling a bronze brush with C4 to remove the carbon ring at the end of the chamber. I then dry patch with 2-3 patches followed by one patch with Lock-eze. I use this process every 30-40 rounds which is 2 targets in UBR. Every 100 rounds I clean any carbon streaks left with Iosso on a Nylon brush. I monitor all my cleaning with a Hawkeye that I've had now for some 35 years, my how time flies! My 30BR now has over 4200 rounds and it's still delivering .160" ag groups with this cleaning process. That barrel is getting retired soon as it seems to throw the occasional 9. Hmmm... it couldn't be me, LOL!

 

[Krogen]

+1 on getting a few wet patches down the bore right after the range being EXTREMELY effective. Getting some bore solvent in the bore immediately after shooting, and letting it sit overnight, really does wonders in softening carbon fouling and making it much easier to remove long-term. It doesn't have to be a fancy solvent, with Hoppes #9 working fine.

A buddy who has ascended to the Benchrest Hall of Fame advised me to do just what you describe. He uses Otis foaming cleaner before bagging his rifle because 1) it's cheap, and 2) you don't need a rod and patches. Just squirt some into the bore from the action end until it oozes out the muzzle and there you go.

 

[jelenko]

Through 1700 round, I can’t see any diminished accuracy with my Savage Model 12 LRPV in .223. Of course, that’s not a lot of rounds for a .223. Maybe if I waited 100 + rounds or so before running ANYTHING through my barrels, or waiting until “ the rifle tells me it needs to be cleaned”, I might have some carbon related issues? I don’t know.

Your cleaning process, with the exception of not using bronze brushes, is the same that I was told by a former Marine office who was responsible for all the Marine marksmanship teams in the days long before borescopes. Your regular use of JB is probably helping to avoid degradation of accuracy. Cleaning after 20-30 rounds isn't hurting either.

Several people have done experiments with bronze brushes on stainless with no measurable effect.

 

[jwv2001]

If the accuracy is holding just keep going. I always have this thought (dangerous). Pre borescopes most of us probably were leaving some carbon in the barrel. Was this relatively thin layer of carbon actually helping to protect the barrel from heat and wear? Now the commercial powers that be would never consider this I am sure, there is money involved you know. It just seems as we have went to perhaps excessive cleaning. Excessive in most thing in life is not usually the best. I wonder.

I'm 200% with JEFFPPC on this. If your rifle is shooting well, leave it alone. I think most of the black you see on patches is soot. Don't be afraid to put a brush down the barrel. Do you know how hard it would be to abrade a stainless or moly barrel with a nylon or bronze brush? Think of it as maybe burnishing the inside of the barrel.
Like every post I've ever made, the shot on target will tell the tale.

 

[Turkeytider]

Your cleaning process, with the exception of not using bronze brushes, is the same that I was told by a former Marine office who was responsible for all the Marine marksmanship teams in the days long before borescopes. Your regular use of JB is probably helping to avoid degradation of accuracy. Cleaning after 20-30 rounds isn't hurting either.

Several people have done experiments with bronze brushes on stainless with no measurable effect.

Yeah, I’m probably being overly cautious.

 

[Turkeytider]

I'm 200% with JEFFPPC on this. If your rifle is shooting well, leave it alone. I think most of the black you see on patches is soot. Don't be afraid to put a brush down the barrel. Do you know how hard it would be to abrade a stainless or moly barrel with a nylon or bronze brush? Think of it as maybe burnishing the inside of the barrel.
Like every post I've ever made, the shot on target will tell the tale.

Well, could be soot, but since soot is composed of carbon, it can’t hurt to remove it and not allow to accumulate (? ). I would think that it would eventually harden.

 

[jelenko]

it would eventually harden.

It will.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Going though your elaborate cleaning process while wearing a blindfold is pointless !! First get a bore scope (teslong), some no harm Dewey bronze brushes and toss everything but the JB !

No solvent?

 

[JBT47]

No solvent?

I believe Tesoro’s point was that no known liquid solvents will remove hard carbon from the throat forward 4-6 inches where it accumulates and then hardens to a diamond-like black glaze. At that point an abrasive will be necessary to remove that glazed carbon.

However, using solvents while barrel is still warm from shooting will go a long way of preventing hard carbon build up and reduce the frequency of nearly obligatory abrasive cleanings. If one misses this window of opportunity to remove the carbon before it adheres itself to the bore like lacquer, liquid solvents alone will do little once it hardens.

 

[qldreloader]

My factory Howa 6.5 Creed barrel seems to pick up carbon fairly quickly. I clean with C4 and nylon brush as soon as I get home. Normal session is 30-50 rounds. After C4 I patch out with alcohol and then I put a 50/50 mix of Hoppes No 9 and Penetrene (can't find Kroil in Aust) into the barrel and leave it soak overnight or a few days. Follow up with more of the Hoppes/Penetrene and bronze brush the next day. Borescope shows some carbon remains but it shoots fine and no carbon ring develops.

 

[Tesoro]

No solvent?

Nope. My bud is part of the origina PacNor crowd and I follow what they found out testing/experimenting back in the day, in cahoots with other barrel makers over on the other side all trying to figure out the most sensible way to bring a barrel back to 'clean' for repeated accuracy. Conclusion was to use an abrasive that breaks down on use like JB so it dosent create galling. Copper and carbon disappear. But they (and I) put the rifles away hot and clean them later when cold. I am sure there are other processes as mentioned but this method works according to my borescope, and every time I start a new session my barrel condition is the same as when I started the prior session, throat erosion excluded,, and simply compensated for if it occurred, during the reloading process.

 

[jelenko]

The horror!

 

[foxguy]

Witches Brew is one of if not THE most aggressive abrasives marketed for rifle cleaning. In case you didn’t know.

Thanks for sharing this information. I didn't Know.