Lost and Confused regarding Load Development

[fattybinz]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

 

[Mulligan]

Tell us about your rifle.
That info will help us help you.

CW

 

[Webster]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

Several things I disagree with. Nothing wrong with finding the max load but keep away from it.

1. There are no FPS flat spots. It's just data ignoring what the ES would be with a large number of shots. More shots plotted at each load the flat spots dissappear. Even 3 or 5 shot groups at each load don't come close to showing the true ES.
2. If your shooting under maybe 400 yards ES and SD don't matter.

Just load to get the smallest groups away from the max load. You could call small groups a node. I shoot a given bullet with a given powder in 5 shot groups increasing charge by .2 grains. If it doesn't immediatley show small groups I go to another bullet and powder. Max load and a little higher FPS accomplish nothing but more barrel wear. I have a Kreiger barrel on both my rifles chambered by a top gunsmith. A good barrel makes it easier to see what works. Both my rifles shoot ..350-.400" groups with good bullets. I have shot a couple groups in the 1s and maybe 1 out of 25 in the 2s. You cannot develop good loads if you have poor shooting skills. At some point you have to decide what the rifle is capable of and live with it. You cannot make a factory rifle shoot real small groups. My rifles are for GH hunting out to at least 350 yards. I never noticed any improvement with seating depth. For me it's the best bullet and the powder that works with that bullet. Try some Berger bulllets or custom made to get an idea of what the rifle is capable of. Most of the bullets on the store shelf were never made to shoot tiny groups.

Added later:
Just reread your post. I think it was a mistake to buy a large amount of one bullet and powder. Kind of prevents trying different powders and bullets,. However your choice of powder and bullet was a good one.

 

[Enosiophobia]

Love it or hate it....this is my process.

1. Find a charge at the middle of book value low / high charge.
2. Load 5 of as many different bullet weights / manufactures I have available in that caliber. I typically use -.020 off lands.
3. Take the best group and work with that bullet. If there's 2 groups too close to separate, load 10 of each, try again and take the best.
4. .5g increments of powder charge from low to high with that bullet. Find the best group and verify with 15 shots.
5. Test seating depths in .005 increments. Verify.
6. Use barrel tuner, if applicable.

I don't look for high velocity, maxing out pressure/ charge, or SD's. I look for on target consistency.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Take a look at this approach if you shoot at 100 yards.

I used this approach and described my results in this thread. It got a little tricky to interpret.

OCW example and next step help

I am performing an Optimal Charge Weight load development as described in the Ryan @FURMAN video and am thinking some of the excellent knowledge on this forum could help me with my next step. The rifle is a Stiller action with a Krieger barrel and Trigger Tech mounted in a Legacy AICS...

www.longrangeonly.com

 

[CharlieNC]

Do the charge weight ladder but at 200-300yd target look for the charges where the vertical poi shows little change, using 2-3 shots per charge. Then google the Berger seating depth optimization method. There are many nuances to accomplish this approach.

 

[DiffEQ]

I tried horizontal vs vertical dispersion in 300 yard ladder tests, and concluded that, unless I was shooting it out of a rail gun, there were too many variables to make the test meaningful.
Then I moved to loading up charge weights from some low to book maximum, five of each load in .3gr increments with the bullets seated 10-15 thou off the lands. Typically I'd have ten to twelve sets of five. These I would shoot over an otpical chrony. I would look for grouping as well as flat velocity groups, indicating a harmonic indifference in the rifle.
What I saw consistently, across many rifles and dozens of load workups, was that from one charge to the next higher, velocity may change by 10-15 fps. It might flatten out a little, then in one group of five, the velocity would jump 20-30fps, and then continue to climb from there.
Then I tried to short-cut the process and I would just load up fifteen rounds of increasing powder charges and chrony them. I'd identify what I considered two or three flat spots and then do loads of a few increments in those groups, five rounds each, looking for the best grouping.
This has worked well for me thus far, and reduces the number of bullets I shoot just doing load workups.

 

[Ruger15151]

Google Erik Cortina Youtube Page. In there he explains the best way to develop a load. He's a National and World F-Class long range champion so he can definitely point you in the right direction.

You are on the right track.

Choose good bullets like Bergers and good brass like Lapua. There is a reason both are expensive.
There ARE velocity flat spots. In my 7mm F-Class rifles they are sometimes .5 grain wide.
Don't ignore seating depth tests in .003 increments unless you intend to use a tuner.
Make sure your neck tension is consistent.
Anneal every time if possible.

Good luck and have fun. Google the guys that are winner long range matches and follow there techniques.

 

[hoz53]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

what twist is dasher

wat brand barrel is dasher.— is this a drop in?
wat action?
like mulligan said

 

[Straightshooter1]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

On #1, running a pressure test is not a bad thing, where you load a series of loads moving up towards maximum loads and look for and stopping when you have pressure signs. But, you shouldn't just try to load to maximum load right off as you really don't know where that is in any particular rifle.

On #2: there no such thing finding a flat velocity spot that tells you anything. Don't do that.

#3: Lowest SD's and ES's don't tell you what's best on target. They only tell you how well you're doing at reloading.

#4: Again . . . "best velocities don't tell you anything about what's best on the targets.

#5: Yes, enjoy the process and set some goals. Achieve one's "reasonable" goals makes one happy.

How I develop a good load: by shooting a ladder of different powder charges at .3gr apart (more for large magnum calibers) and focus on the target, not on the velocities. Shoot the ladder of POA's along a horizontal line (3 to 5 shots) and compare their locations and shapes. Once you identify a load that looks good, retest to confirm if that load really is performing as it appears. Then it can be fine tune with seating depth test if you like.

 

[450BM]

I like to start in the middle of min - max for powder and then go both ways in .5 grain changes. I believe, and this is just my opinion, that each bullet is going to have a velocity and rpm it shoots best at and how you get there isn’t as relevant as the velocity. And with that said, it may not be a velocity/rpm you can get to in all cartridges/twist of the barrel. So, if I can’t find a sweet spot by changing powder charges, I start trying different bullets.

Since I started shooting cast in my rifles, I also like to “break the barrel in” by shooting a couple hundred rounds before I start trying to find a good load.

 

[MikeRu]

If getting frustrated try 108 Bergers, they’re easy to tune in Dasher, and try several neck tensions low medium and high.

 

[fattybinz]

Tell us about your rifle.
That info will help us help you.

CW

Good point.
Rifle:
Lone Peak Fuzion action
28" CRB Comp barrel
MDT ACC Elite chassis
Triggertech Diamond
Razor Gen 3 6-36x56 MOA

Components:
Alpha Brass
CCI 450 primers
Berger 105 Hybrid
Varget Powder

I anneal after every firing with AMP. Headspace is .0015-.002". Tension is using a PMA mandrel.

 

[fattybinz]

what twist is dasher

wat brand barrel is dasher.— is this a drop in?
wat action?
like mulligan said

I put some stats in a post above

 

[fattybinz]

Google Erik Cortina Youtube Page. In there he explains the best way to develop a load. He's a National and World F-Class long range champion so he can definitely point you in the right direction.

You are on the right track.

Choose good bullets like Bergers and good brass like Lapua. There is a reason both are expensive.
There ARE velocity flat spots. In my 7mm F-Class rifles they are sometimes .5 grain wide.
Don't ignore seating depth tests in .003 increments unless you intend to use a tuner.
Make sure your neck tension is consistent.
Anneal every time if possible.

Good luck and have fun. Google the guys that are winner long range matches and follow there techniques.

I follow Erik religiously. That is part of why I'm confused...he talks about finding the nodes, but then others dismiss those velocity nodes as a myth

 

[fattybinz]

On #1, running a pressure test is not a bad thing, where you load a series of loads moving up towards maximum loads and look for and stopping when you have pressure signs. But, you shouldn't just try to load to maximum load right off as you really don't know where that is in any particular rifle.

On #2: there no such thing finding a flat velocity spot that tells you anything. Don't do that.

#3: Lowest SD's and ES's don't tell you what's best on target. They only tell you how well you're doing at reloading.

#4: Again . . . "best velocities don't tell you anything about what's best on the targets.

#5: Yes, enjoy the process and set some goals. Achieve one's "reasonable" goals makes one happy.

How I develop a good load: by shooting a ladder of different powder charges at .3gr apart (more for large magnum calibers) and focus on the target, not on the velocities. Shoot the ladder of POA's along a horizontal line (3 to 5 shots) and compare their locations and shapes. Once you identify a load that looks good, retest to confirm if that load really is performing as it appears. Then it can be fine tune with seating depth test if you like.

Thanks! About setting reasonable goals, with the rifle and components that I shared above, what would be a reasonable goal? Assume I'm a good shoots; at what point should I stop and be satisfied with this rifle and these qualify components? Consistent .5 moa 10-shot groups at 200 and 300 (that is the longest range I have within an hour of me)?

 

[William Vogel]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

My go to load with a 28 inch barrel for 6 Dasher is 31.5 Varget with CCI 400’s and 0.030 jump. I have a Kauger action with a 0.062 firing pin. It’s a Krieger barrel with 7.5 twist. It shoots 2850fps and damn near through the same whole at 100 yards and makes 10 shot 3 inch groups at 700 yards. I think you need to slow down the bullet just a little. My 26 inch benchrest rifle likes 32.4 and the same 2850 velocity. Here’s the 28 inch gun.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Thanks! About setting reasonable goals, with the rifle and components that I shared above, what would be a reasonable goal? Assume I'm a good shoots; at what point should I stop and be satisfied with this rifle and these qualify components? Consistent .5 moa 10-shot groups at 200 and 300 (that is the longest range I have within an hour of me)?

If you have a good barrel, I'd expect a 6 Dasher to do better than .5 MOA. . . even a little better than .4 MOA. I'd shoot for .4 MOA, being "relatively new to handloading". A lot will not only depend on your loading, but also your shooting skills and the rest of your rigs features (like a good light trigger pull; a high power scope that you can see small; shooting off a good solid front rest).

Other than the above, goals for producing consistent loads that give you low SD's and ES's . . . like a 6 Dasher should be able to easily get into the single digit SD's. That too will depend on you reloading equipment and your skill at using them.

When I started precision loading for my .308, I wasn't sure I'd be able to get consistently into the single digit SD's with this particular cartridge. It took some experimenting, some changes in equipment and listening a lot to others over time that I finally got there. So, be patient and keep working at it and you'll figure it all out.

 

[seymour fish]

I'm a relatively new to handloading. I've only done load development with hunting rifles with okay results. My go-to method was

1. Last up to published max looking for pressure to determine a safe place to test chargeweights
2. Shoot a ladder test to find flat velocity flat spot "nodes"
3. Test different chargeweights within the node to find the amount of powder that yields the lowest SDs and ESs
4. Using the chargeweight with the best velocities and then test seating depth using groups.
5. Hopefully be happy

Now I've been listening to the Hornady podcast and they definitely drive home the idea that velocity notes are a myth...that with a large enough sample size, velocity increases linearly with increases in powder. So now I'm lost. I don't really hear them providing an alternative method, except trying different combinations of bullets/powder/primer. Problem I have I just build a 6 dasher that is purely for fun and hitting steel, and I've bought enough primers (CCI 450), bullets (Berger hybrid 105), and powder (varget), all with matching lot numbers, to last me the life of this barrel. So with that, can yall give me some insights into how you would develop a load? I keep hearing/reading how easy it is to load for the 6 dasher. I tested for max chargeweight today and started hitting pressure at 32.2gr of varget, where my velocity topped out at 2935fps. Was hoping to maybe get a bit more out of my 28" barrel. So since there are no such thing as velocity nodes, then what...just load up to something like 32.0gr and just move straight to bullet seating tests?

Stop listening to Hornady.

 

[L.Sherm]

I follow Erik religiously. That is part of why I'm confused...he talks about finding the nodes, but then others dismiss those velocity nodes as a myth

A node is not a velocity flat spot on a chronograph.